Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
Model 1892 "CHINA NAVIGATION Co." Carbines
December 26, 2017
12:33 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2685
Member Since:
March 20, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hello all,

While cataloging Model 1892 rifles in my survey I have noted 4 SRC’s in 44 WCF caliber which are marked “CHINA NAVIGATION Co. Ltd. on the left side of the barrel just beneath the rear sight.  To date I have found SN 199425, 207489, 302356, and 309720.  These rifles may also have a numeric stamp on the upper tang and a letter stamped on the top of the receiver just to the rear of the barrel.  One rifle also has a B&S (Butterfield & Swire, owners of the China Navigation Co)  serial number on left side of receiver.  I am in touch with a fellow collector and a representative of the current Swire & Co in New Zealand who have both done some research into these rifles.  If anyone has one of these marked rifles I would be very interested in getting more information and photos of your rifle to add into my data base.  The images below are from SN 199425.

pix020071762.jpgImage Enlargerpix732506311.jpgImage Enlargerpix931270651.jpgImage Enlargerpix918521924.jpgImage Enlarger

Thanks so much for your help

Michael

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

Signature-Pic.jpg

 

Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

December 27, 2017
5:53 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
May 21, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

      Hi Michael

      This may be of interest to you. I have an 1892 Carbine in 44 WCF.   The barrel has been replaced,  and unmarked, but the other markings are —

       BS over  NO 84. on Left side of Stock.  Has no oval marking.      84 behind Hammer, on side of Lever, on bottom of rear barrel Band, and on side of 

       Magazine tube near muzzle.  On top of Receiver over chamber is letter F.    This Carbine, Serial No. 86532 is also marked with the 84 number on the 

       bottom of the Hammer, and the bottom of the Breach Block. All numbers are square and precise and look like they have been there since new.

       I can send photos if you need them,  but there are no barrel markings.   Let me know,   Eric

December 27, 2017
1:13 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2685
Member Since:
March 20, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Eric Ryan said
      Hi Michael

      This may be of interest to you. I have an 1892 Carbine in 44 WCF.   The barrel has been replaced,  and unmarked, but the other markings are —

       BS over  NO 84. on Left side of Stock.  Has no oval marking.      84 behind Hammer, on side of Lever, on bottom of rear barrel Band, and on side of 

       Magazine tube near muzzle.  On top of Receiver over chamber is letter F.    This Carbine, Serial No. 86532 is also marked with the 84 number on the 

       bottom of the Hammer, and the bottom of the Breach Block. All numbers are square and precise and look like they have been there since new.

       I can send photos if you need them,  but there are no barrel markings.   Let me know,   Eric  

Good morning Eric,

SN 83562 was originally built in 44 WCF so nothing appears to be changed regarding the configuration.  Yes, please do forward photos to me at my email 2bitrifles@gmail.com   Does the number on the muzzle match the one in the attached photo?  Do you live in Australia by chance Eric.  I actually have this rifle entered in my survey listing with the original barrel address style noted.  I must have received information on it before the switch but  I have no saved photos of the gun.  I have sent an email to the then owner to see if there is any chance of getting some pics.

pix954284992-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Thanks

Michael

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

Signature-Pic.jpg

 

Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

January 4, 2018
8:10 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2685
Member Since:
March 20, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
Hello all,
Here is what I have come up with to date regarding B&S stamped Model 1892 rifles.
 
1.  I have data on 6 rifles ranging from SN 86532 to 309720.  This spans a production period between 1898 and 1905.
 
2.  I have identified a total of 5 individual orders which include these 6 rifles that were shipped out by Winchester on the following dates:
Order 232 on Mar 10, 1898  Contained 21 rifles
Order 11639 on Dec 29, 1902  Contained 8 rifles
Order 12162 on January 14, 1903  Contained 59 Rifles
Order 12572 on June 6, 1905  Contained 18 Rifles
Unknown order number containing SN 309720.  This rifle was serialized in Aug 5, 1905 so it could not have been in the June 6, 1905 order.  This order supposedly contained 18 rifles if the attached auction document is correct.  Hopefully I can clear this up after going to Cody in February.  A possible 124 rifles are included in these orders.
 
3.  The two rifle I have examined via photos from the earliest order ( Order 232 on Mar 10, 1898  Contained 21 rifles) were not stamped CHINA NAVIGATION on the barrel though the other receiver and barrel marks are consistent with later guns which are marked on the barrels. 
 
Michael

Signature-Pic.jpg

 

Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

April 9, 2021
6:38 pm
Avatar
Nottinghamshire, United Kingdom
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 92
Member Since:
May 3, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Resurrection of an old thread 

My China navigation carbine arrived today from Henry Mero

it too has a cartouche on the stock but it’s under some brown varnish I can just about make out numbers No 42 and circular China navigation mark.

also has j j under the B7AA042C-1EE2-452D-BA91-3FF73EC0B301.jpegImage EnlargerDDB00E93-E387-4B41-9B3E-9FD8312EADDF.jpegImage Enlargerlever on the bottom tang

BASC member

April 11, 2021
8:19 am
Avatar
Sydney Australia
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 125
Member Since:
February 4, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Coldweld. Congratulations on your new acquisition.

Is your example marked with British commercial proof marks by any chance?

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney

April 11, 2021
8:27 am
Avatar
Nottinghamshire, United Kingdom
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 92
Member Since:
May 3, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

27C34267-5111-4B66-86B8-797039B9CE6D.jpegImage EnlargerHi Alan London proof house special proof  1887-1925 showing only one proof charge as opposed to the usual two.

barrel is very good 848EC17C-B6B1-4361-AFC5-B362E491252C.jpegImage Enlarger testing some 3 shot groups yesterday 

BASC member

April 11, 2021
9:31 am
Avatar
Sydney Australia
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 125
Member Since:
February 4, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I thought it would.

 

The J.J. mark was applied by the UK agent for Winchester & Colt, The London Armoury Co.

 

Most Colt collectors are familiar with the marking, as it shows up on a lot of Colt pistols, bearing London proofs.

 

Its more rarely seen on Winchesters. I have seen it on a Winchester Model 1907 or 1910 – forget which it was as it was over 20 years ago.

 

The marking is thought to be a marking to assist with warranty claims, but this is speculative as no written evidence has been found. The two letters were the first two letters in the LAC’s manager.

 

Regards

AlanD

April 11, 2021
11:48 am
Avatar
Nottinghamshire, United Kingdom
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 92
Member Since:
May 3, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Alan 

How many China navigation rifles do you know that still exist ? I suspect that not a great amount where bought compared to the British ww1 Winchesters.
It took me a few weeks to find what the proof marks where as the closest I could find for a while where military marks but they are different.
I assume you the expert Michael talks about, the more I can learn about the China navigation firearms is a positive and very interesting to try and find out what my rifle has been upto all these years .

kind regards 

Dean

BASC member

April 11, 2021
12:17 pm
Avatar
Nottinghamshire, United Kingdom
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 92
Member Since:
May 3, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Alan could you please shed some light on what these numbers mean ?44390496-7FAC-4092-A4B5-13AC1C718EC8.jpegImage Enlarger

regards

Dean

BASC member

April 11, 2021
1:11 pm
Avatar
Sydney Australia
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 125
Member Since:
February 4, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Dean

 

I really do not know much about the China Navigation Co carbines, I am sure Bert & Michael will know more than me. One thing is for sure, the quantity of these will be a lot less than the 5,000 Model 1894 and 20,000 Model 1892 SRC’s that the Admiralty purchased.

 

It looks as if the CN Co carbines were purchased through the London Armoury Co, in the UK. If so presumably all of the other known examples will have London commercial proof marks, like your example. I wonder how many of them will have the J.J. marking on the bottom tang that the owner has not noticed. Time to did those carbines out fellers.

 

The markings on the underside of the receiver on the Model 1892 in the photo appear to be a rack or ownership number. I have never seen this on any of the Model 1892 or Model 1894 DCP carbines and the serial number of the carbine in the photo is after the known serial number range of the DCP carbines.

So unless someone else has a similarly marked example to the one in the photo and for some reason knows the back story to it, it is likely you will never know who put the marking on the gun.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

April 12, 2021
12:17 pm
Avatar
Nottinghamshire, United Kingdom
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 92
Member Since:
May 3, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

How many members have China Navigation carbines

BASC member

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: mrcvs, TXGunNut
71 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 8886

Posts: 76690


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1186

Members: 10414

Moderators: 4

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 4867

TXGunNut: 3210

clarence: 3046

twobit: 2685

Chuck: 2673

steve004: 2306

Maverick: 1756

Big Larry: 1625

JWA: 1573

RickC: 1324