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Jeremy Scott. said
Jeremy P said
antler1 said
Winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver
Good to know!
This is absolutely not true. I have documented several. In fact there were 8 case colored 1886 takedown guns produced.
I would doubt any of those 8 are ELW’s, but I’ve been surprised before.
The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.
all 8 are pre 109,600 serials, all black powder frames.
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
Online
Jeremy Scott. said
Jeremy P said
antler1 said
Winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver
Good to know!
This is absolutely not true. I have documented several. In fact there were 8 case colored 1886 takedown guns produced.
Jeremy,
Do they actually letter with a case color finished receiver? Winchester clearly and specifically stated in their catalogs that Case Color finishing was not available for the Take Down variations of Model 1886. Unless the ledger record (or letter) states “CH” or “Cased”, you should immediately assume that somebody refinished the rifle. I would like to see a letter that authenticates a case color finished Take Down rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Jeremy Scott. said
The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.all 8 are pre 109,600 serials, all black powder frames.
That’s right – I recall there was a certain year that Winchester stopped case coloring the frame of any model.
Jeremy,
Very interesting data you have provided.
Do you have serial numbers and/or pictures to add to your findings ?
Thanks,
Bill
steve004 said
Jeremy Scott. said
The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.
all 8 are pre 109,600 serials, all black powder frames.
That’s right – I recall there was a certain year that Winchester stopped case coloring the frame of any model.
August 1901, though for some models it was June 1901. At the time Winchester ceased case color finishing, only the Single Shot, Model 1886, and Model 1890 were standard with that finish.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Jeremy Scott. said
The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.all 8 are pre 109,600 serials, all black powder frames.
And that statement is correct… Winchester did not ever “offer” case color finish on a Take Down Model 1886. A customer would have had to specifically special order it and convince Winchester to do it for them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert , The most dangerous word in the English language is assume, “I assume everything I read in a winchester catalog to be true” wrong, I dont assume anything! and fact is I have seen lots that contradict what Winchester put in the catalogs. I certainly dont appreciate your implications that I would not be able to tell a real case colored winchester from a redone one. Or the fact that I would be so ignorant as to see a made up one and just think winchester must have done that as you so stated. Its ok you know nothing about me,my credentials, how many case colored winchesters ive held or own, shows I have traveled, how much time I have spent at cody and how many guns I research a week etc. so i will let that one slid. Fact is winchester did “offer” a case color takedown 1886 or else they would not have been made. regardless of how it transpired , a customer ordered a case colored takedown and winchester agreed and OFFERED to make it. Just because people are quiet and dont choose to be vocal on here does not mean there are no experts far beyond the knowledge here. I have seen plenty of false fact giving on here in the past and sat quiet.
Anyway the 8 guns mentioned were all made from march 13, 1894 – june 18, 1896 Here is an example of one such gun. 
apologies it uploaded sideways.. kinda like some past statements…lol
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them. After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles. I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.
I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.
Jeremy,
You have apparently misinterpreted my posted comments. I positively was not implying that you personally could not tell a refinished versus original finish gun. I simply stated that unless there is verifiable proof (which you provided by posting the copy of the factory letter) one should not just simply assume that they have a very rare special order case color finished Take Down Model 1886. With only (8) possibly known case colored Take Downs versus the 30,000+ Take Downs there were blued, the odds speak for themself. I personally have not had the pleasure to handle a bona fide factory case color finished Take Down (yet), but I have had my hands on a fair number of them that were positively refinished. Final comment… nobody (myself included) is perfect or incapable of making an occasional mistake in regard to Winchester’s past firearms production anomalies.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
In the interests of full disclosure I make more than my share of mistakes and misstatements so it’s OK that some of y’all more learned folks hardly ever venture down that path. Like the vast majority of you I’m here to learn and I’ll always be grateful for the generosity of the experts who gather here to share their knowledge. If my little dab of knowledge is helpful to someone I’m tickled pink. If I misremember something please be gentle, my feelings are easily hurt and my ego is fragile.
OK, just kidding about that last part. I was a comp shooter and cop too long to have tender feelings or an ego, if I had either I’d trade it for some 20-1 lead alloy.
Mike
I can’t add much here , but I think that from the pictures it is an original C style carved 1886. In fact I was so enamored by it I requested more detailed up close pictures of it. I will agree the finish of the metal appeared more worn than the wood, but also the blue wear is generally located to the natural carry point of an 86. I will say this I was all in on it… to a certain point. I think the estimate that Madis provided drove the current price today. I can’t believe that 30 years ago it had a value of $12k plus. But I will say this, who has anything in C style? And as far as the price, Poulin sold a very nice 86 late last year with D style carving, which I believe there are 37 documented specimens per the ledgers and it hammered at $16k. So was it a anomaly? I think not, what stopped me was the blank ledger line which can not be explained. Only my best guess is it was sent to the carving shop and some how was sort of forgotten about and by the time it was done they simply shipped it as the received and ship date does appear in the ledger. I know I wish I had it in my collection! just my 2 cents.
I don’t think Bert said anything out of line, he asked you to back up your position with some evidence, is he supposed to assume your position is factual just because you said so? Relax.
steve004 said
I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them. After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles. I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.
Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?
Burt Humphrey said
steve004 said
I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them. After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles. I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.
I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.
Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?
Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
Jeremy, I was just thinking the same thing about Burt’s ‘86 before I read your post.I look forward to seeing your rifle(s) someday, and maybe even an opportunity……
Bill
Jeremy Scott. said
Burt Humphrey said
steve004 said
I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them. After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles. I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.
I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.
Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?
Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !
Jeremy – that 86 is #109591 – it was shipped with 2 other 86’s, serial 109592 and serial 109587 – all 3 guns were configured exactly the same, shipped to the same order number on the same day and all 3 guns were R&R 2 different times on the same dates. Serial #109592, the gun subsequent to mine just has ditto marks in the ledger.The 3 guns must have belonged to the same family – they were obviously special order guns. I would sure like to find one or both of the other guns.
Burt Humphrey said
Jeremy Scott. said
Burt Humphrey said
steve004 said
I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them. After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles. I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.
I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.
Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?
Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !
Jeremy – that 86 is #109591 – it was shipped with 2 other 86’s, serial 109592 and serial 109587 – all 3 guns were configured exactly the same, shipped to the same order number on the same day and all 3 guns were R&R 2 different times on the same dates. Serial #109592, the gun subsequent to mine just has ditto marks in the ledger.The 3 guns must have belonged to the same family – they were obviously special order guns. I would sure like to find one or both of the other guns.
Burt – Is it interesting that the other two rifles, of this identical configuration, haven’t shown up. With all the contacts through here, I would think someone would have seen one of them somewhere? I sure wonder what kind of condition they are in now.
Burt Humphrey said
Jeremy Scott. said
Burt Humphrey said
steve004 said
I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them. After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles. I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.
I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.
Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?
Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !
Jeremy – that 86 is #109591 – it was shipped with 2 other 86’s, serial 109592 and serial 109587 – all 3 guns were configured exactly the same, shipped to the same order number on the same day and all 3 guns were R&R 2 different times on the same dates. Serial #109592, the gun subsequent to mine just has ditto marks in the ledger.The 3 guns must have belonged to the same family – they were obviously special order guns. I would sure like to find one or both of the other guns.
Fabulous 1886 Burt. This is the stuff I like ! thank you for sharing.
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
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