Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Model 1886 ELW, antique, .45-70 very special rifle
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4250
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21
February 20, 2024 - 6:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy Scott. said

Jeremy P said

antler1 said

Winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver

  

Good to know!

  

This is absolutely not true. I have documented several. In fact there were 8 case colored 1886 takedown guns produced.   

  

I would doubt any of those 8 are ELW’s, but I’ve been surprised before.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 81
Member Since:
November 13, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22
February 20, 2024 - 6:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.

all 8 are pre 109,600 serials,  all black powder frames. 

Jeremy Scott.

WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10835
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23
February 20, 2024 - 6:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy Scott. said

Jeremy P said

antler1 said

Winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver

  

Good to know!

  

This is absolutely not true. I have documented several. In fact there were 8 case colored 1886 takedown guns produced.   

  

Jeremy,

Do they actually letter with a case color finished receiver?  Winchester clearly and specifically stated in their catalogs that Case Color finishing was not available for the Take Down variations of Model 1886.  Unless the ledger record (or letter) states “CH” or “Cased”, you should immediately assume that somebody refinished the rifle.  I would like to see a letter that authenticates a case color finished Take Down rifle.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4250
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24
February 20, 2024 - 6:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy Scott. said
The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.

all 8 are pre 109,600 serials,  all black powder frames. 

  

That’s right – I recall there was a certain year that Winchester stopped case coloring the frame of any model.

Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 486
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25
February 20, 2024 - 6:54 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy,

Very interesting data you have provided.

Do you have serial numbers and/or pictures to add to your findings ?

Thanks,

Bill

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10835
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26
February 20, 2024 - 6:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

steve004 said

Jeremy Scott. said

The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.

all 8 are pre 109,600 serials,  all black powder frames. 

  

That’s right – I recall there was a certain year that Winchester stopped case coloring the frame of any model.

  

August 1901, though for some models it was June 1901.  At the time Winchester ceased case color finishing, only the Single Shot, Model 1886, and Model 1890 were standard with that finish.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10835
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27
February 20, 2024 - 7:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy Scott. said
The statement made was that winchester never offered a case colored takedown receiver.

all 8 are pre 109,600 serials,  all black powder frames. 

  

And that statement is correct… Winchester did not ever “offer” case color finish on a Take Down Model 1886.  A customer would have had to specifically special order it and convince Winchester to do it for them.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
North D/FW
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 255
Member Since:
April 30, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28
February 20, 2024 - 7:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

All good clarifications on this…thank you

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 81
Member Since:
November 13, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
February 20, 2024 - 10:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert , The most dangerous word in the English language is assume, “I assume everything I read in a winchester catalog to be true” wrong,  I dont assume  anything! and fact is I have seen lots that contradict what Winchester put in the catalogs. I certainly dont  appreciate your implications that I would not be able to tell a real case colored winchester from a redone one. Or the fact that I would be so ignorant as to see a made up one and just think winchester must have done that as you so stated. Its ok you know nothing about me,my credentials, how many case colored winchesters ive held or own, shows I have traveled, how much time I have spent at cody and how many guns I research a week etc.  so i will let that one slid.    Fact is winchester did “offer” a case color takedown 1886 or else they would not have been made. regardless of how it transpired , a customer ordered a case colored takedown and winchester agreed and OFFERED to make it.  Just because people are quiet and  dont choose to be vocal on here does not mean there are no experts far beyond the knowledge here. I have seen plenty of false fact giving on here in the past  and sat quiet. 

Anyway the 8 guns mentioned were all made from march 13, 1894 – june 18, 1896   Here is an example of one such gun. 20240220_171904.jpgImage Enlarger  apologies it uploaded sideways.. kinda like some past statements…lol

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

Jeremy Scott.

WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4250
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
February 20, 2024 - 11:41 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them.  After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles.  I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.

I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10835
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
February 21, 2024 - 12:47 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy,

You have apparently misinterpreted my posted comments.  I positively was not implying that you personally could not tell a refinished versus original finish gun.  I simply stated that unless there is verifiable proof (which you provided by posting the copy of the factory letter) one should not just simply assume that they have a very rare special order case color finished Take Down Model 1886.  With only (8) possibly known case colored Take Downs versus the 30,000+ Take Downs there were blued, the odds speak for themself.  I personally have not had the pleasure to handle a bona fide factory case color finished Take Down (yet), but I have had my hands on a fair number of them that were positively refinished. Final comment… nobody (myself included) is perfect or incapable of making an occasional mistake in regard to Winchester’s past firearms production anomalies.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5034
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
February 21, 2024 - 1:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

In the interests of full disclosure I make more than my share of mistakes and misstatements so it’s OK that some of y’all more learned folks hardly ever venture down that path. Like the vast majority of you I’m here to learn and I’ll always be grateful for the generosity of the experts who gather here to share their knowledge. If my little dab of knowledge is helpful to someone I’m tickled pink. If I misremember something please be gentle, my feelings are easily hurt and my ego is fragile. 
OK, just kidding about that last part. I was a comp shooter and cop too long to have tender feelings or an ego, if I had either I’d trade it for some 20-1 lead alloy.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 584
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33
February 21, 2024 - 1:27 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I can’t add much here , but I think that from the pictures it is an original C style carved 1886. In fact I was so enamored by it I requested more detailed up close pictures of it. I will agree the finish of the metal appeared more worn than the wood, but also the blue wear is generally located to the natural carry point of an 86. I will say this I was all in on it… to a certain point. I think the estimate that Madis provided drove the current price today. I can’t believe that 30 years ago it had a value of $12k plus. But I will say this, who has anything in C style? And as far as the price, Poulin sold a very nice 86 late last year with D style carving, which I believe there are 37 documented specimens per the ledgers and it hammered at $16k. So was it a anomaly? I think not, what stopped me was the blank ledger line which can not be explained. Only my best guess is it was sent to the carving shop and some how was sort of forgotten about and by the time it was done they simply shipped it as the received and ship date does appear in the ledger. I know I wish I had it in my collection! just my 2 cents. 

Avatar
LI NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 120
Member Since:
August 14, 2021
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
34
February 21, 2024 - 1:28 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I don’t think Bert said anything out of line, he asked you to back up your position with some evidence, is he supposed to assume your position is factual just because you said so? Relax.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 561
Member Since:
April 1, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35
February 21, 2024 - 6:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

steve004 said
I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them.  After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles.  I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.

I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.

  

Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?

matt9.JPGImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 81
Member Since:
November 13, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
36
February 21, 2024 - 8:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Burt Humphrey said

steve004 said

I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them.  After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles.  I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.

I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.

  

Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?

matt9.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !   

Jeremy Scott.

WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 486
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
37
February 21, 2024 - 10:13 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy, I was just thinking the same thing about Burt’s ‘86 before I read your post.I look forward to seeing your rifle(s) someday, and maybe even an opportunity……

Bill

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 561
Member Since:
April 1, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
38
February 21, 2024 - 10:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeremy Scott. said

Burt Humphrey said

steve004 said

I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them.  After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles.  I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.

I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.

  

Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?

matt9.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !   

  

Jeremy – that 86 is #109591 – it was shipped with 2 other 86’s, serial 109592 and serial 109587 – all 3 guns were configured exactly the same, shipped  to the same order number on the same day and all 3 guns were R&R 2 different times on the same dates. Serial #109592, the gun subsequent to mine just has ditto marks in the ledger.The 3 guns must have belonged to the same family – they were obviously special order guns. I would sure like to find one or both of the other guns.

86ltr.JPGImage Enlargermatt11.JPGImage Enlargermatt10.JPGImage Enlargermatt4.JPGImage Enlargermatt1.JPGImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4250
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
39
February 21, 2024 - 10:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Burt Humphrey said

Jeremy Scott. said

Burt Humphrey said

steve004 said

I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them.  After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles.  I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.

I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.

  

Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?

matt9.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !   

  

Jeremy – that 86 is #109591 – it was shipped with 2 other 86’s, serial 109592 and serial 109587 – all 3 guns were configured exactly the same, shipped  to the same order number on the same day and all 3 guns were R&R 2 different times on the same dates. Serial #109592, the gun subsequent to mine just has ditto marks in the ledger.The 3 guns must have belonged to the same family – they were obviously special order guns. I would sure like to find one or both of the other guns.

86ltr.JPGImage Enlargermatt11.JPGImage Enlargermatt10.JPGImage Enlargermatt4.JPGImage Enlargermatt1.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Burt – Is it interesting that the other two rifles, of this identical configuration, haven’t shown up.  With all the contacts through here, I would think someone would have seen one of them somewhere?  I sure wonder what kind of condition they are in now.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 81
Member Since:
November 13, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
40
February 21, 2024 - 11:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Burt Humphrey said

Jeremy Scott. said

Burt Humphrey said

steve004 said

I’m not surprised that eight customers had enough influence to convince Winchester to produce case colored takedown M1886 for them.  After all, all of these eight rifles were made during the period that Winchester was producing case hardened M1886 solid frame rifles.  I would be a lot more surprised if any of these rifles were manufactured after 1901.

I also note that the letter for the rifle Jeremy has indicates it is more of a special order rifle than just the c/h aspect.

  

Special for sure. Many of us are fans of the checkered and case hardened 86. And, I have certainly never seen one in take down configuration. Is this information noted in the Madl book? Jeremy, would it be possible for you to post some photos of your 86?

matt9.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Hi Burt, That information is not in the madl book I have. The specific rifle in question is not currently in my collection. That said I do have plenty of fancy case hardened 1886 I will have to share one day. It is my favorite model and I spend a lot of time having fun researching them. That is a wonderful 1886 you posted a picture off !   

  

Jeremy – that 86 is #109591 – it was shipped with 2 other 86’s, serial 109592 and serial 109587 – all 3 guns were configured exactly the same, shipped  to the same order number on the same day and all 3 guns were R&R 2 different times on the same dates. Serial #109592, the gun subsequent to mine just has ditto marks in the ledger.The 3 guns must have belonged to the same family – they were obviously special order guns. I would sure like to find one or both of the other guns.

86ltr.JPGImage Enlargermatt11.JPGImage Enlargermatt10.JPGImage Enlargermatt4.JPGImage Enlargermatt1.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Fabulous 1886 Burt. This is the stuff I like ! thank you for sharing. 

Jeremy Scott.

WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6364
TXGunNut: 5034
Chuck: 4597
1873man: 4322
steve004: 4250
Big Larry: 2341
twobit: 2295
mrcvs: 1726
TR: 1722
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12754
Posts: 111097

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1763
Members: 8850
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation