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I am not a member of CFM yet, so can someone tell me what the serial number application date is for a model 1894 sn 5158? It has a first model receiver with the exposed cartridge guides screw above the loading port, and in the same location on the opposite side of the receiver. Are these first models rare? Any idea how many 1894’s were produced with the first model receivers?
Thanks,
Al
what is the caliber? I have serial number 4860 It is 7-9-1895 manufactured.
2nd model 30 wcf.
Al,
As it turns out (surprise), I have a survey in progress for the First variation Model 1894s. I am working with another WACA member to eventually write an article about them.
The PR date for serial 5158 is 7-15-1895.
I have surveyed ( 98 ) First Models to date. The highest verified serial number is 7471. First Models become very scarce after serial number 5500.
Thus far, all but (1) First variation is a 38-55. All of the early production 32-40s verified thus far have the Second variation receiver frame. There is (1) First variation surveyed in 30 WCF.
The earliest Second Model receiver serial number verified thus far is 545.
I have a research request in with the CFM (Jesi) to survey the first 7,500 Model 1894s and provide me with the total number of 38-55s made. That will give a very close approximation of what the total possible number of First variations is. I suspect that the number is something close to 3,000, but will know more after I get the information from the CFM later this year.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, one to add to your list:
SN 1658
RB, FM, CB, in 38-55. The original 26" barrel has a little more than 1/2 inch trimmed off of it. Send me an email if you would like photos.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Chris,
Thanks for the information. I had this serial number on my list already, but it never hurts to double check the information. When I checked it at Cody last year, it has a 12-28-1894 PR date, and was received in the warehouse on 1-15-1895.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, Why do you think the First and Second variations were so overlapped, and why would most all First variations be 38-55s?
oakridge said
Bert, Why do you think the First and Second variations were so overlapped, and why would most all First variations be 38-55s?
Good questions, and I honestly do not know. I would have expected to find both the early production 38-55s and 32-40s with First variation receiver frames, and then a relatively small overlap between the First and Second variation receiver frames. That said, the First variation certainly did not exist very long in the production run.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have always found Renneberg’s and others "definition" of the "1st model receivers" in the model 1894 a little odd. Especially with such an overlap between the types of receivers all the way down to single and double digit serial numbers.
I like George’s definition by tang markings better because its a whole lot easier to remember! 😀
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
The one problem with George’s tang marking is he only shows 4.
Bob’s book shows 6 up till s/n 1,000,000. There are more but since I am only interested in the 94 rifles, the first 6 are good enough for my interest. As far as the receiver being first or second model, it is just the screws for the cartridge guides going from the outside of the receiver for the first model and the screws on the inside of the receiver for the second model.
Paul
maverick said
I like George’s definition by tang markings better because its a whole lot easier to remember! 😀Sincerely,
Maverick
I am quite confused by that statement? The upper tang marking is identical on a First and Second variation Model 1894 receiver.
Winchester did not change the upper tang marking until serial numbers were in the 15K range, and even then, the change was not significant (the periods after the "1894" were dropped).
Can you point me towards Madis’ definition of a First versus a Second variation Model 1894 receiver?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Can you point me towards Madis’ definition of a First versus a Second variation Model 1894 receiver?Bert
There isn’t one, that is why it is so much easier to remember. J/K
By that method everything under 15,000 serials is easier to remember as a first model. 
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
94shorties said
The one problem with George’s tang marking is he only shows 4.
Bob’s book shows 6 up till s/n 1,000,000. There are more but since I am only interested in the 94 rifles, the first 6 are good enough for my interest. As far as the receiver being first or second model, it is just the screws for the cartridge guides going from the outside of the receiver for the first model and the screws on the inside of the receiver for the second model.Paul
Yeah George didn’t consider 94s much past WWII as "a Collector’s Winchester", which is why there is only 4 tang markings.
Was just trying to make a little joke. No need to over analyze it.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
maverick said
Yeah George didn’t consider 94s much past WWII as "a Collector’s Winchester", which is why there is only 4 tang markings.Was just trying to make a little joke. No need to over analyze it.
Sincerely,
Maverick
All nine of the various upper tang markings were used prior to August 1942 (pre-war). Later today, I will edit this post and include the observed serial number ranges for each type.
Type 1 serial numbesr 1 – 14936
Type 1A serial numbers 24033 – 220561
Type 2 serial numbers 229432 – 444283
Type 3 serial numbers 453370 – 704915
Type 4 serial numbers 745105 – 892876
Type 5 serial numbers 897060 – 1018875
Type 5A serial numebrs 1009595 – 1019419
Type 6 serial numebrs 1014079 – 1166438
Type 7 serial numbers 1132448 – 1343103
I do have some large gaps in the serial number ranges for the early production tang markings simply because I have not dedicated very much time to looking for the specimens in the Type 1 – Type 4 serial number ranges. If anyone wants to contribute to this survey, please send me a PM, or post here in this topic.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert. I am considering buying the first model 1894, sn#5158. It’s a standard model rifle, 38-55, has a 26" round barrel and full mag, lyman #21 receiver sight. It’s in very good condition for its age, probably 80%.
This is a typed version of the first 6 Tang markings. The s/n range is from BOBR94’s book.
http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/oldguy67/media/1894%20others/1892%20data/3_zps0c00a395.jpg.html
[Image Can Not Be Found]
Paul,
I have been surveying when the various tang marking changes occurred, and can tell you that Bob needs to update his book (he is gathering new & updated information for a future 3rd edition). He is aware of the information I have in my survey.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have been collecting data on the different caliber markings as far as the location and style, trying to narrow down when the changes took place and there is a very large overlap between what I call the third, fourth and fifth type. It may be just a waste of time but I will continue anyway.
Paul
Here’s the first model serial #5158. Pretty pricey. I’m going to take a look at it this weekend.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gun-Library/Wheeling-Gun-Library%7C/pc/103792680/c/105951780/Winchester-Model-1894-Sporting-Rifle-38-55/1726245.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fwheeling-gun-library%2F_%2FN-1103688%2FNo-40%2FNs-PRODUCT_NAME%257C1%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNP%26recordsPerPage%3D40
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Al
94shorties said
I have been collecting data on the different caliber markings as far as the location and style, trying to narrow down when the changes took place and there is a very large overlap between what I call the third, fourth and fifth type. It may be just a waste of time but I will continue anyway.Paul
Paul,
I do not consider it a waste of time. Any information that can be gleened from hands on surveys is valueable.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Online
94shorties said
I have been collecting data on the different caliber markings as far as the location and style, trying to narrow down when the changes took place and there is a very large overlap between what I call the third, fourth and fifth type. It may be just a waste of time but I will continue anyway.Paul
Paul,
I do not consider it a waste of time. Any information that can be gleened from hands on surveys is valueable.
Bert
Absolutely. I could not agree more.
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