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JWA said
I am also a Col. Townsend Whelen fan ( as well as Hatcher, Keith, et al) so I am still interested in finding the Whelen link.
There’s no doubt he was “tight” with Winchester management…so tight, some of his reviews of Winchester products, such as the earliest 52s with their dog’s hindleg stocks, seem a little light on objectivity. (Unlike his good friend Ned Crossman who ALWAYS said what he really believed, let others like it or not.) So it seems entirely possible that he advised his friends in the company that adding flutes to guns with SG buttplates would be an enhancement to the design. Calling them “Whelen flutes” because of that, however, strikes me as pretty asinine, considering fluted combs had been around for many decades prior to their use on Winchesters.
November 7, 2015
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JWA said
Yes, VERY interesting, most of the rifles in the .22 world do not have them, that is why I was interested in hearing the opinions of a Marine and. Submariner. I am also a Col. Townsend Whelen fan ( as well as Hatcher, Keith, et al) so I am still interested in finding the Whelen link.
Thanks for all of the input!
Best Regards,
.
I believe I read an account of Whelen’s influence on the fluted stock in a reprint or photograph of a very short magazine article. May have been American Rifleman, possibly Guns & Ammo. I know that’s vague but was hoping it may jog a better memory.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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JWA said
Yes, VERY interesting, most of the rifles in the .22 world do not have them, that is why I was interested in hearing the opinions of a Marine and. Submariner. I am also a Col. Townsend Whelen fan ( as well as Hatcher, Keith, et al) so I am still interested in finding the Whelen link.
Thanks for all of the input!
Best Regards,
.
Found one, page 219 of Renneberg’s 94 book: “…As on the Model 55, the stocks were designed by Col. Townsend Whelen in concert with the N.R.A. and have his design trademark of a deeply fluted comb…” This quote is from chapter 13 on the Model 64 and other similar references are in chapter 12 (Model 55) and possibly other chapters as well. Great pictures on page 87 with a more detailed explanation on page 86. Perhaps BOBR can shed more light on this subject.
Mike
I enjoyed the subject and sharing of opinions and comments about it as well. I particularly liked those that had to do with the size of the hands including the test Steve mentioned, plus Clarence’s insight that flutes might have been the way to slim down the shotgun style stock, (which could possibly aid some people in obtaining a better grip), or that he convinced them to add flutes to guns with SG stocks for enhancing the design, (for aesthetic value), and why attribute them to Col. Whelen when they had been around in one shape or another since before his connection with Winchester.
Col. Townsend Whelen firing bolt gun:
Custom Springfield built by the Col:
jwm94 said
I enjoyed the subject and sharing of opinions and comments about it as well.Jeff, don’t let me lead you astray looking for an article, (or book passage) that might not address the purpose of the Whelen flutes. I do not believe that I found it online.James
James,
I have enjoyed the conversation also since I had never really given the flutes any thought whatsoever. Great pictures of Whelen, thanks for posting those!
I am still on the hunt for articles or other related information to see if there is anything else to learn.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
It looks to me that Whelen’s thumb is resting in the flute.
It also appears he had big hands. I’ve been a fan of Col. Whelen’s since I first heard that “only accurate rifles are interesting” but I can’t recall the exact quote. I’ve since learned that a rifle doesn’t need to be accurate to interest me.
Mike
ALL: Should I come across anything that might help us better understand this issue, I’ll keep you posted. It does appear that Whelen’s hands are rather big. Which brings to mind a number of points:
TXGunNut said
Found one, page 219 of Renneberg’s 94 book: “…As on the Model 55, the stocks were designed by Col. Townsend Whelen in concert with the N.R.A. and have his design trademark of a deeply fluted comb…” This quote is from chapter 13 on the Model 64 and other similar references are in chapter 12 (Model 55) and possibly other chapters as well. Great pictures on page 87 with a more detailed explanation on page 86. Perhaps BOBR can shed more light on this subject.
Mike
For a short time, Whelen was connected with a company that built custom gunstocks, sold inletted blanks, etc., the National Target & Supply Co., which put out a large catalog of guns, sights, accessories, called Col. Whelen’s Gun Handbook; mine is the 4th ed, 1939. He was mainly a figurehead, I think, but the stockwork was supposed to reflect his principles, & there are several pages describing the kind of work available from their shop, run by a Scotsman named Hutton. Choices in buttplates, cheekpieces, other details, are discussed, but nothing in particular said about comb flutes.
Thinking about flutes, I pulled a M55 out of the safe this morning:
And consistent with the title of this the topic, here is more of this rifle:
The pad also has the 1922 patent dates. If I recall, this M55 was made about the same year my 1894 special order carbine was made – 1927 or 1928. The pad is in better shape than the one on my ’94 SRC, which is consistent with the very little use this rifle saw.
Bert – you do have this M55 in your survey. I’ve had it many years.
All this hypothesizing is certainly a good thing, but the flutes were nothing more than cosmetic. It makes the stock more aesthetically pleasing. Nothing more…nothing less.
JWA said
I am still on the hunt for articles or other related information to see if there is anything else to learn.
If he was going to say anything at length about such a minor detail as flutes, I think the most likely venue for that discussion would have been his Dope Bag column in the Rifleman, where he frequently commented on these kinds of technical points–often in response to a member’s question. They have never been collected or re-published.
His book, The Hunting Rifle, includes a very detailed discussion on custom stock design, in which he says the most important element the stocker should consider is the shaping of the comb, its height & thickness, which should be adjusted to fit the proportions of the shooter. Yet the word “flute” isn’t even used in this description. I presume he considered that a detail best left to the discretion of the stocker, which gives me the impression it was not a subject of overriding importance to him personally.
jwm94 said
And another that stems from a mental picture of LCol. George VanOrden III, that I have carried with me for the better part of 60 years. He was the first Marine, a 2nd Lt. at the time, that I observed in rapid fire from the sitting and prone position with the Winchester Model 70 target gun. I found it simply fascinating then as now, that a bolt gun could be fired so fast with only minimal body movement to operate the bolt while firing ten rounds, and come away with a possible score in under 70 seconds. VanOrden was a great marksman with the M-1 or the Model 70. Visiting this mental image again causes me to think that the flutes not only aided him with a more comfortable grip, but was likely a critical reference point for a very fast and smooth recovery.James
THAT would have been an exhibition worth paying to see! Wonder what he could have done with an Enfield, reputedly the fastest firing of all bolt guns, due (I think) to the rear locking lugs.
steve004 said
Thinking about flutes, I pulled a M55 out of the safe this morning:And consistent with the title of this the topic, here is more of this rifle:
The pad also has the 1922 patent dates. If I recall, this M55 was made about the same year my 1894 special order carbine was made – 1927 or 1928. The pad is in better shape than the one on my ’94 SRC, which is consistent with the very little use this rifle saw.
Bert – you do have this M55 in your survey. I’ve had it many years.
I don’t know… what is the serial number ?
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi all, new guy here.
I know this is an older topic, but it’s exactly what I need help with.
I have the opportunity to purchase a 1951 94 but it has a butt pad on it.
It’s the waffle style and I can’t make out what’s written on the back.
I have a picture but I’m having a rough time trying to figure out how to embed the image.
Still waiting to hear back if it says Winchester, but I don’t think so.
Owner says it was a factory option but I’m not feeling it.
Any opinions or information would be most helpful.
Thank you !
Julian Brachfeld said
Hi all, new guy here.I know this is an older topic, but it’s exactly what I need help with.
I have the opportunity to purchase a 1951 94 but it has a butt pad on it.
It’s the waffle style and I can’t make out what’s written on the back.
I have a picture but I’m having a rough time trying to figure out how to embed the image.
Still waiting to hear back if it says Winchester, but I don’t think so.
Owner says it was a factory option but I’m not feeling it.
Any opinions or information would be most helpful.
Thank you !
Hello Julian,
Winchester on very rare occasion would install a recoil pad on a lever-action, but not a vented (waffle) recoil pad like you describe. Winchester installed their own patented solid red rubber pad if requested (see the attached pictures).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have the opportunity to purchase a 1951 94 but it has a butt pad on it.Julian Brachfeld said
Almost the worst vandalism that could be done to a 94; cuts the value in HALF, & would be hard to sell even at that price. Even with a legit factory pad, it would be hard to sell.
clarence said
I have the opportunity to purchase a 1951 94 but it has a butt pad on it.Julian Brachfeld said
Almost the worst vandalism that could be done to a 94; cuts the value in HALF, & would be hard to sell even at that price. Even with a legit factory pad, it would be hard to sell.
I sold my 1951 “longwood” Model 94 last year – put it up for auction – and it crossed for $780. It showed no signs of use but rather a few small blemishes in the metal caused by condensation while in storage that kept it from looking brand new. I’ve attached some pix. This probably represents a market price for a very nice, all original, un-messed with, 94 of that vintage, that is less than perfect cosmetically but not much.
From a collector’s viewpoint, the same gun with a stock cut for a recoil pad (any recoil pad, we’ll assume it’s a nice, well installed reproduction 1922 red Winchester pad, to give the devil its due) would be entirely uncollectible and you’d not find such a person interested at the $390 Clarence mentioned. HOWEVER, if the gun I’ve illustrated had a nice Winchester red pad, it would still be a hell of a nice gun to carry in the woods and hunt with, and for several generations of users if they took good care of it.
It really all depends on why you want my hypothetical gun. If you want to start a Winchester collection, don’t buy it. Period. If you are a hunter and can buy my hypothetical gun for significantly less than $780 – particularly if you can buy it for Clarence’s max price of $390 – and are willing to keep it and use it as a field gun until you croak – you should buy it. My hypothetical gun is nicely made and you can’t replicate it in the new gun market today for less than about $1200 USD. The new Miroku made Winchester 94 rifles are very fine things but they ring the gong at closer to $1500. They are not better guns for a hunter’s purpose than my hypothetical red pad 1951 for less than $400.
What will NOT happen, though, is any annual, significant increase in my hypothetical gun’s resale value. As others a lot more experienced and wiser at the game than I’ll ever be, should tell you: “WHEN IN DOUBT, DO WITHOUT.”
I rest my case. 
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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