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Mod 94 recoil pad
November 22, 2020
3:37 am
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Came across a 1911 Manufactured mod 94, button mag, has a red recoil pad (wafer style) with a white line spacer, like a pachmayr...... owner told me that was a factory installed option. That can’t be right can it??? 

November 22, 2020
5:23 am
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Extremely unlikely...

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November 27, 2020
2:24 am
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It was an available factory option but I agree with Bert, it is extremely unlikely.  And, from your description, it doesn't sound like the specific pad they would have used.

November 27, 2020
3:46 am
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steve004 said
It was an available factory option but I agree with Bert, it is extremely unlikely.

On a '94?  Well that surprises me, but I can't believe that stupid "white line" had been dreamed up by 1911!  It began as a gimmick by the Mershon Co. in the late '30s, I think.

November 27, 2020
1:57 pm
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clarence said

steve004 said
It was an available factory option but I agree with Bert, it is extremely unlikely.

On a '94?  Well that surprises me, but I can't believe that stupid "white line" had been dreamed up by 1911!  It began as a gimmick by the Mershon Co. in the late '30s, I think.  

I didn't say Winchester used a pad with a "white line" in it back then.  However, they did use their own white line pad on shotguns a bit later.  The lever action model I have seen more (factory installed) recoil pads on than any other model is the M1886.  The next would be the M1895. Very few on other models.  The 1916 Winchester catalog states they would fit a Silvers recoil pad to a rifle or a shotgun for $7.00.  

Madis states, "Soft rubber recoil pads, made by Silvers or Jostam, were fitted by Winchester.  Winchester also made soft rubber buttplates which bear the Winchester name."  

Here is a special order M1894 carbine I have.  It's beyond the, "letterable" range and I have no story with it - such as it has been in my family since it was new.  I do know for sure the carbine is special order given pistol grip checkered stock.  Many collectors will doubt the pad and that's fine.  I like it, I shoot it and when it comes time to sell it, the buyer will draw their own conclusion. For me, this carbine has great character and the pad adds to that.  Obviously, the price will be dramatically less vs. the scenario where I had a factory letter which specified the pad.  

On page 427 of my edition of the Madis (large) book, he shows a carbine fitted with a recoil pad.  It is the pad with the black spacer and looks a lot like mine.

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November 27, 2020
3:28 pm
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As a follow-up, I am not surprised we see so few special order rubber recoil pads on rifles.  First, why?  I think few shooters saw them as needed, particularly on a M1894 carbine.  And of great impact must have been the cost.  In 1916, you could order a new M1894 carbine (in .32-40 or .38-55) for $17.50.  The cost of adding the Silvers rubber pad was $7.00.  Half the cost of the carbine would be $8.75 - that is getting darn close to half the cost!

November 27, 2020
5:23 pm
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Steve,

Is that a Winchester pad on your Carbine?  I note that it has a Fluted comb butt stock, which was what Winchester used on the special order Model 1894 Rifles & Carbines when a Shotgun butt was ordered.  Winchester first began using the Fluted comb stocks on the Model 1894 in 1913.  What is the serial number on your Carbine?

Bert

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November 27, 2020
6:48 pm
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steve004 said
As a follow-up, I am not surprised we see so few special order rubber recoil pads on rifles.  First, why?  I think few shooters saw them as needed, particularly on a M1894 carbine.  And of great impact must have been the cost.  In 1916, you could order a new M1894 carbine (in .32-40 or .38-55) for $17.50.  The cost of adding the Silvers rubber pad was $7.00.  Half the cost of the carbine would be $8.75 - that is getting darn close to half the cost!  

Also, if you "had" to have a pad, a much cheaper alternative was a slip-on or lace-on style, several kinds of which were available by this time.

November 27, 2020
7:11 pm
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Bert H. said
Steve,

Is that a Winchester pad on your Carbine?  I note that it has a Fluted comb butt stock, which was what Winchester used on the special order Model 1894 Rifles & Carbines when a Shotgun butt was ordered.  Winchester first began using the Fluted comb stocks on the Model 1894 in 1913.  What is the serial number on your Carbine?

Bert  

Bert -

I know the serial number is a bit over one million and it was made in 1927.  It's a .32 special.  It's in your survey but I'll pull it out of the safe today and e-mail you the serial number.  It has a .32 Special rear sight too  Smile

November 28, 2020
1:23 am
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Steve, the pad on your carbine looks to be the Winchester pad with the 1922 patent date.  Is that correct?

James

November 28, 2020
1:45 am
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jwm94 said
Steve, the pad on your carbine looks to be the Winchester pad with the 1922 patent date.  Is that correct?

James  

Yes, patented June, 1922.  It is not a reproduction pad.  So date-wise, with the fluted buttstock and the date on the pad, it would appear to add up.

November 28, 2020
2:10 am
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steve004 said

Yes, patented June, 1922.  It is not a reproduction pad.  So date-wise, with the fluted buttstock and the date on the pad, it would appear to add up.  

I concur.  Additionally, your Model 94 is one of (4) I have verified with the Winchester solid red rubber recoil pad in that same relative serial number range.

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November 28, 2020
3:14 am
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steve004 said

Yes, patented June, 1922.  It is not a reproduction pad.  So date-wise, with the fluted buttstock and the date on the pad, it would appear to add up.  

That’s what I thought.  Yes, date-wise it does pass.  Once a long time back, I was reading about the history of the Whelen Flutes, and I tend to remember the year of 1918, plus the Model 52...that was introduced not long thereafter, which almost adds up, but not quite. 

James

November 28, 2020
3:20 am
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James,

I did not know the flutes were atrributed to Townsend Whelen.  What is the functional purpose of them?  I always thought Whelen was a practical guy but other than percieved aesthetics I see no funtional advantage to the flutes.

I would love to know the history behind them if you have a source.

Thanks!

Best Regards,

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November 28, 2020
4:12 am
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JWA said
James,

I did not know the flutes were atrributed to Townsend Whelen.  What is the functional purpose of them?  I always thought Whelen was a practical guy but other than percieved aesthetics I see no funtional advantage to the flutes.

I would love to know the history behind them if you have a source.

Thanks!

Best Regards,  

Jeff, my memory is not that good, but my best guess has to do with the grip, which, of course, appears to be the obvious.  That said, I seem to recall that Col. Townsend was also a target shooter, which brings to mind that service men were taught to get the strongest hold on the grip as possible, and one exercise was to try to hold the rifle on target with one hand.  In effect this would cause a tendency to get on top of the grip and as close to the receiver as possible for better control.  So with this scenario in mind, the meat of the thumb, might fit more comfortable with a flute in the edge of the comb.  Dunno, for sure, though.

November 28, 2020
4:47 am
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Interesting, my grip does not take my thumb anywhere near the flute, especially with my cheek locked on the comb, but maybe I have small hands.  I like the look of it but still cannot really fathom a reason for it (unless you have big hands).

Just tryin' to learn, Semper Fi.

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November 28, 2020
5:02 am
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I am not of the opinion that the flutes have any functional purpose what-so-ever, as they are too high on the comb of the stock to have anything to do with gripping it.

I have always heard them referred to as "Whelen" flutes, but do not know the reason or background behind it.  They were standard on a fair number of Winchester models (rifles & shotguns) beginning in the early 1930s.

Bert

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November 28, 2020
5:08 pm
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JWA said
Interesting, my grip does not take my thumb anywhere near the flute, especially with my cheek locked on the comb, but maybe I have small hands.  I like the look of it but still cannot really fathom a reason for it (unless you have big hands).

Just tryin' to learn, Semper Fi.

Best Regards,  

Good morning, Jeff.  Big hands likely has a lot to do with it.  One thing that I learned when I was on a Marine barrack's rifle team that sported four distinguished riflemen, (with one being our Captain), plus one well on his way to the same award, and myself, the tyro, was that my cheek weld in the standing position was all on the side and comb of the stock, like the position taught to recruits.  Whereas, the other member's cheek weld was, for all intent and purposes, like the one used in the prone position, tight and solid and close to the receiver, where the face is held tight against the thumb in the groove between the lower cheekbone and the teeth, and also making contact with the nose.  This hold in the offhand position was not something that was taught to me, I picked it up through observing the pros that I shot with and started getting into the 98 to 100 possible scores.  Wish I could say for certain why the flutes came about, but I highly suspect that Col Whelen designed them, and I do feel confident that I had read they had something to do with the grip, (and/or cheek weld, now that we have both had the chance to think about it).  But you know what they say about age and memory!!!  Having said that, Bert, could be right, and this was just a drill!!!Laugh

James

November 28, 2020
5:26 pm
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Bert H. said
I am not of the opinion that the flutes have any functional purpose what-so-ever, as they are too high on the comb of the stock to have anything to do with gripping it.

I have always heard them referred to as "Whelen" flutes, but do not know the reason or background behind it.  They were standard on a fair number of Winchester models (rifles & shotguns) beginning in the early 1930s.

Bert  

Bert, I don't remember the reference material that tied, as I recall, the Whelen flutes to Col. Whelen, the year 1918(?), and the Model 52.  It has probably been 15 or 20 years since I read the article, but I don't think they were designed simply for looks...that does not make any sense to me.

James

November 28, 2020
5:36 pm
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Bert H. said
I have always heard them referred to as "Whelen" flutes, but do not know the reason or background behind it.  They were standard on a fair number of Winchester models (rifles & shotguns) beginning in the early 1930s.

Wasn't someone somewhere tracking these fluted combs on the stocks of Winchester 1894's?

I seem to recall the earliest ones came out about 1910, but that is just from memory.

In any event, here's a Winchester Model 1894 with a fluted comb.  It dates from January 1914.  I have no idea how to take good photographs of an entire rifle, as you can see.

EDIT:  I can't figure out how to attach photographs.  For one, it doesn't like the file extension of .jpe so I guess you will have to trust me on this one.

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