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I received an order search from the Cody records office and as part of the shipped date information an order number was provided. The rifle was a special order gun. Records show it was both received and shipped on September 14, 1886.
Is there any way to further track or identify this number to get some “history” on the rifle?
Cheers
Kirk
Online
Kirk,
The order number can not be traced any farther. Those records have been destroyed. It referenced the order that was probably filed in the office and would of had the name and address of were it was sent along with any special features that were ordered by the customer. Sometimes the order number was for a large shipment of guns of all different models for a store. Then the other guns in the shipment would have the same order number.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Kirk,The order number can not be traced any farther. Those records have been destroyed. It referenced the order that was probably filed in the office and would of had the name and address of were it was sent along with any special features that were ordered by the customer. Sometimes the order number was for a large shipment of guns of all different models for a store. Then the other guns in the shipment would have the same order number.
Bob
And what a shame that is.
Imagine being able to trace particular Winchesters to original owners and the doors to all sorts of history and interest that could open.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
I heard that a lot of records were used a fuel for the power plant at the factory.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I heard that a lot of records were used a fuel for the power plant at the factory.Bob
That is true, I posted a copy of the Winchester News article here a couple of years ago. I am not sure how to search for it because it was off topic of the main discussion but it is in the ether here somewhere…….
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Jeff,
Please repost a copy of that article if it is not too much trouble (or send me a scanned copy of it).
Thanks,
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Here is the excerpt regarding using the records for furnace fuel I previously posted, there were actually several articles detailing the records storage and the new records facility. I will find them this week and scan them. I have been promising them to you for awhile and apologize for the delay.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Kevin Jones said
And what a shame that is.
Imagine being able to trace particular Winchesters to original owners and the doors to all sorts of history and interest that could open.
Just a wandering mind…..has anyone ever run across records from the old time hardware stores and big dealers that sold Winchesters ?
Bill
Bill, here’s a photo from the book ‘Winchester an American Legend’ by RL Wilson depicting the well stocked ‘Freund Armory’ in Cheyenne Wy. They also customized guns and made special sights for sportsmen like Theodore Roosevelt.
Also shown is the ‘Sportsmen’s Depot’ in Denver Co. I expect these dealers saw quite a few Winchester POs over the years.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
I remember reading in the past that the records were destroyed in a fire.No mention at that time, that the fire was of Winchester’s own making.
Too bad these records were lost,but one can understand that Winchester only had so much space to use for records.No one at that time ,ever dreamed of the collector and historic interest, future generations would have in the companies products.
Blueliner said
Just a wandering mind…..has anyone ever run across records from the old time hardware stores and big dealers that sold Winchesters ?
Bill
Yes, the ledger records of Von Lengerke & Detmold, Von Lengerke & Antoine, Abercrombie & Fitch/Griffin & Howe still exist and contain a wealth of information on specific firearms sales including many thousands of Winchesters. As part of the research for the Model 69 book I am preparing I have examined the ledgers specifically for that model and there were 1,340 of just the Model 69 sold and documented in the ledgers so that should give you an idea of the sheer volume of the total Winchesters of all models listed. The ledger information lists by serial number the date the rifle was received from Winchester, the date it was sold, some details of the firearm such as barrel length and sights and who it was sold to with the wholesale and retail price.
The surviving ledgers are currently archived by Griffin & Howe, Inc. and include the VL&D records from 1901-1929 (in 3 volumes), VL&A stock list for 1913-1914 and the A&F sales ledgers (in 28 volumes) from 1929-1977. Altogether these records comprise over 15,000 pages of detailed information (with approximately 30+ firearms listed per page) on both new and used firearms sold by VL&D, VL&A and A&F from 1901-1977.
There are certainly some other very useful dealer records still available such as the Schuyler, Hartley & Graham records but the VL&D, VL&A and A&F ledgers are the largest resource I have found so far.
Hope that helps.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
August 11, 2015
Offline
Great info. How do you get access? I am a colt collector as well and generally they can tell you who it was shipped to, so this would be a great way of extending any provenance work.
Regards
JWA said
Blueliner said
Just a wandering mind…..has anyone ever run across records from the old time hardware stores and big dealers that sold Winchesters ?
Bill
Yes, the ledger records of Von Lengerke & Detmold, Von Lengerke & Antoine, Abercrombie & Fitch/Griffin & Howe still exist and contain a wealth of information on specific firearms sales including many thousands of Winchesters. As part of the research for the Model 69 book I am preparing I have examined the ledgers specifically for that model and there were 1,340 of just the Model 69 sold and documented in the ledgers so that should give you an idea of the sheer volume of the total Winchesters of all models listed. The ledger information lists by serial number the date the rifle was received from Winchester, the date it was sold, some details of the firearm such as barrel length and sights and who it was sold to with the wholesale and retail price.
The surviving ledgers are currently archived by Griffin & Howe, Inc. and include the VL&D records from 1901-1929 (in 3 volumes), VL&A stock list for 1913-1914 and the A&F sales ledgers (in 28 volumes) from 1929-1977. Altogether these records comprise over 15,000 pages of detailed information (with approximately 30+ firearms listed per page) on both new and used firearms sold by VL&D, VL&A and A&F from 1901-1977.
There are certainly some other very useful dealer records still available such as the Schuyler, Hartley & Graham records but the VL&D, VL&A and A&F ledgers are the largest resource I have found so far.
Hope that helps.
Best Regards,
Incredible…1/2 million entries of gun sales. That’s a project waiting to happen. Thanks for the insight.
Mark Fischer said
Great info. How do you get access? I am a colt collector as well and generally they can tell you who it was shipped to, so this would be a great way of extending any provenance work.Regards
For access just go to the G&H website http://griffinhowe.com/researchyourfirearm/ and follow the directions. The online list does not mention Colt as being one of the manufacturer’s they have indexed but it is worth giving them a call to ask since the project is ongoing. Mr. Bob Beach is the researcher/archivist there that can answer your questions. He is a true gentlemen and shares our passion for these classic firearms in addition to his love of the historical record trails.
For researching a specific firearm such as a Winchester just click on the Winchester tab and search for your serial number on the list. If it is there you can call or email your firearm details and they will match it up with the record. It is best to search “all serial numbers” for Winchester because some of the models have not been fully indexed yet and the 7457 Winchester serial numbers on the website are certainly not all of the Winchesters listed in the ledgers. They can provide a letter of provenance (which includes a copy of the ledger page) and I have had that done on some of mine. It is every bit as professional as a Cody letter and in most cases provides more information about the rifle and purchaser. For instance, VL&D and A&F weighed each rifle and shotgun prior to sale and recorded the actual weight in the ledger. In doing research it was interesting to note the variances in the actual weights due to the density of the stocks on identical models. In general, the fancier wood weighed a bit more.
I don’t think all of the serial numbers are listed yet so even if you don’t see your serial number listed it still is worth a call to them to ask, as I said the indexing process has been on-going.
Here is a sample of a ledger page http://secure.griffinhowe.com/Research-book1.cfm
Hope that helps.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
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