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November 7, 2015
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TXGunNut said
Saw this one while perusing Steve’s 32 Special.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/892675828
Mike
Mike,
It is a standard low-wall rifle made for the 25-20 Single Shot (S.S.) cartridge.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
Mike,
It is a standard low-wall rifle made for the 25-20 Single Shot (S.S.) cartridge.
Well, yes. Nothing really special but I liked it. It’s also exactly the rifle I was thinking of when I read your article yesterday, Bert.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Saw this one while perusing Steve’s 32 Special.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/892675828
Mike
Fun rifle. It would be a nice addition to my .25-20 lever action repeaters – most of which are Winchesters 
Oops… I’d have to add a set of reloading dies for this one tag along on range trips with my other .25-20’s. Some brass would be needed too.
steve004 said
Oops… I’d have to add a set of reloading dies for this one tag along on range trips with my other .25-20’s. Some brass would be needed too.
Big surprise, if whoever buys it intends to shoot it. I experienced that “big surprise” about 40 yrs ago, & didn’t enjoy it.
November 7, 2015
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If it was a 32-20 I’d be a lot more interested as a buyer. As it is I found it entertaining to look at and think about. Just eye candy, little more. If I bought it I’d want to shoot it and as has been pointed out that could be a pricey experience. I don’t have to shoot every firearm I own but I’ll always want to.
Mike
RickC said
Any speculation on what it will sell for?
Probably more than it would bring if the cartridge were properly identified; Cody, not the seller, is responsible for the confusion.
Yes I agree Clarence that the wrong caliber is going to throw the bidding off.
clarence said
Cody, not the seller, is responsible for the confusion.
WRONG answer!!
You apparently have absolutely NO clue about what you are talking about. The CFM records office can only provide the factory letter information exactly as it is recorded in the original warehouse ledger records. Those records as recorded by the Winchester employees working in the warehouse at that time, did not specify which specific “25/20” cartridge that rifle was chambered. The reason for that fact is simple… at the time that rifle was manufactured, there was only ONE 25/20 cartridge available. The vast majority of the early production Single Shot rifles manufactured for the 25-20 Single Shot were recorded in the records as “25/20” or less frequently “25 WCF” (exactly as that rifle is marked).
Accordingly, it is indeed the seller’s responsibility to provide accurate information in his/her auction listing.
Final comment… in the future, I am urging you to think about what you are saying (typing) before you do it. I welcome everyone’s opinions and information, but I will not condone you (or anyone else) for unjustly accusing or placing blame on anyone, especially the CFM.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
rogertherelic said
Seems like they may have made calibers in batches. RDB
In my research of the Single Shot records, there were very few “batches” based solely on the caliber. Typically, when a group (batch) of similar or identical rifles were made, it was based on a specific Order received for them. For instance, the largest single batch of identical caliber Single Shot rifles I found in the warehouse ledger records were (100) identical rifles made in 40-70 Sharps Straight, 30″ No. 4 octagon barrels, all shipped to E.C. Meachum in St Louis, MO on order number 4183.
Throughout the Single Shot records, there are numerous batches of (10), (20), (30), (40), and even a few for (50) rifles all in the same caliber and with the same order number. I have identified several Australian orders that fir into this category.
Conversely, when reviewing the Model 1894/94 production records, there were indeed many large batches that were manufactured specifically by the caliber, but were shipped to many different order numbers. I suspect the production foreman would specify that he wanted several hundred 30 WCF, or 32 WS rifles or carbine made up for warehouse stock. In my survey of the Model 1894, I have discovered large batches (at least 900 consecutive) Take Down rifle, indicating that batches were also made in specific configurations as well as calibers.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
WRONG answer!!
You apparently have absolutely NO clue about what you are talking about. The CFM records office can only provide the factory letter information exactly as it is recorded in the original warehouse ledger records. Those records as recorded by the Winchester employees working in the warehouse at that time, did not specify which specific “25/20” cartridge that rifle was chambered. The reason for that fact is simple… at the time that rifle was manufactured, there was only ONE 25/20 cartridge available. The vast majority of the early production Single Shot rifles manufactured for the 25-20 Single Shot were recorded in the records as “25/20” or less frequently “25 WCF” (exactly as that rifle is marked).
Accordingly, it is indeed the seller’s responsibility to provide accurate information in his/her auction listing.
Final comment… in the future, I am urging you to think about what you are saying (typing) before you do it. I welcome everyone’s opinions and information, but I will not condone you (or anyone else) for unjustly accusing or placing blame on anyone, especially the CFM.
Bert
The seller has provided accurate information by posting the museum letter–what more can he do? Especially since he’s probably never heard of the difference between these two cartridges. I did know that difference when I bought the LW marked “.25 WCF,” but not that Winchester was marking the .25-20 SS this way. In this unusual case, two different cartridges given the same name, would it be unreasonable to clarify the difference in a special note appended to the letter?
“Before introduction of the .25-20 Repeater cartridge in 1893, .25 WCF designated the .25-20 SS cartridge.”
Actually, you need to read his description again. “Offered at no reserve – A higher condition Antique Winchester Model 1885 low wall. Made in 1893. Interesting highly figured XX grade walnut fore end. Chambered in .25 WCF (.25 SS)”
Chuck said
Actually, you need to read his description again. “Offered at no reserve – A higher condition Antique Winchester Model 1885 low wall. Made in 1893. Interesting highly figured XX grade walnut fore end. Chambered in .25 WCF (.25 SS)”
I did not see that, so the seller was better informed than I would have suspected. 1893 OR 1895 is given by Barnes as the introduction date of the repeater cartridge.
clarence said
The seller has provided accurate information by posting the museum letter–what more can he do? Especially since he’s probably never heard of the difference between these two cartridges. I did know that difference when I bought the LW marked “.25 WCF,” but not that Winchester was marking the .25-20 SS this way. In this unusual case, two different cartridges given the same name, would it be unreasonable to clarify the difference in a special note appended to the letter?
You are still missing an important point that I emphasized… at the time Winchester was marking the Single Shot barrels “25 W.C.F.”, the 25-20 W.C.F. (repeater) cartridge did not yet exist. Therefore, why or how could the Winchester employees have differentiated or clarified it in the records entry? The CFM records office provides the information exactly as it is listed in the records. The attached picture shows exactly how S/N 60865 was entered in the warehouse ledger record book. Take note of the fact that is a ditto’d entry from S/N 60862, as all of them were on the same order number.
Now, how could you reasonably expect the staff at the CFM records office to provide any further details about that rifle on a research sheet or factory letter?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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I must admit the cartridge name issue is one reason I found this rifle interesting. It helps illustrate the confusion caused by the different 25-20 cartridges.
Mike
I see Merz has two for sale:
Interesting how on this first one, he does discuss the caliber confusion:
https://www.merzantiques.com/product/7217-winchester-low-wall-rifle-in-rare-25-20-single-shot/
steve004 said
I see Merz has two for sale:Interesting how on this first one, he does discuss the caliber confusion:
https://www.merzantiques.com/product/7217-winchester-low-wall-rifle-in-rare-25-20-single-shot/
Why do you suppose the first one is “rare,” but not the second? Must be the bolt through the wrist.
TXGunNut said
I must admit the cartridge name issue is one reason I found this rifle interesting. It helps illustrate the confusion caused by the different 25-20 cartridges.
Mike
It’s not the problem it was when I acquired the “.25 WCF” I mentioned above–then, there was NO new brass available, so you had to dig up old cases in shootable cond., which I never did. I bought some cases reformed from .223 brass, but they looked so funky I never used them, & decided to make the gun someone else’s problem. Still have those cases if anyone wants them.
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