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I do not have pictures of that rifle (sure wish I did though). Unfortunately, I did not make a note of where it was seen either.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
JEREMY S. said
there is a great possibility that more than 5 were made. I would think the 5 are ones visible as recorded so in factory ledgers. let’s not forget about the possibility of a return and repair which would possibly not state the barrel length. this would only be brought to light when the gun surfaces and is inspected. also there is a good chance one or more could pop up in the 140,000-150799 & 156600-160000 serial ranges where the records are lost.
None have been found thus far, but we have only documented (surveyed) 564 of the 8,200 in the 146000-150799 and 156600-160000 serial range. We did find (1) rifle S/N 152228 with a 21″ barrel. It is a Fancy Sporting Take Down rifle, 33 WCF, 3X stocks D-carved, factory engraved (Ulrich).
Bert
Here you go, Winchester 1885, No 152228
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=382982
mrcvs said
Bert H. said
JEREMY S. said
there is a great possibility that more than 5 were made. I would think the 5 are ones visible as recorded so in factory ledgers. let’s not forget about the possibility of a return and repair which would possibly not state the barrel length. this would only be brought to light when the gun surfaces and is inspected. also there is a good chance one or more could pop up in the 140,000-150799 & 156600-160000 serial ranges where the records are lost.
None have been found thus far, but we have only documented (surveyed) 564 of the 8,200 in the 146000-150799 and 156600-160000 serial range. We did find (1) rifle S/N 152228 with a 21″ barrel. It is a Fancy Sporting Take Down rifle, 33 WCF, 3X stocks D-carved, factory engraved (Ulrich).
Bert
Here you go, Winchester 1885, No 152228
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=382982
I must have seen it at a later date, as Mark & I had not yet started the late production Model 1886 survey.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
With a stick rule. A Winchester barrel length in manufacturing is overall length, to the cartridge rim. This is 22 ” from the cartridge rim. the length from the muzzle face to the shoulder is 21 1/4″- that would be a short rifle barrel- as in the above web site sale ,straight octagon, 15/16 th”–every dovetail and cut was factory 1886, in the white , has a machine surface, oval proof. the two center cartridges are 45-90 WCF on Rem-UMC 300gr express rifle cartridges, the Rem is factory, other a reload. Compared to the 45-90 SS cartridge with 45-90 case squeezed to a .451 bullet. .07 thousands smaller than 45-90 WCF bullet at.458.,see why it was not used.
Without re reading the entire post again, this barrel has been modified by someone other than Winchester.
Ralph,
Your pictures of the barrel length clearly show a non-factory cut-down (shortened) barrel. Additionally, the front sight is too close to the muzzle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
were it a finished blued barrel i might agree with you, but the front sight dovetail is exactly 1 inch from the muzzle face , right as rain as far as i’m concerned. every dovetail extractor cut, threaded hole for the magazine tube was cut, threaded at Winchester factory, who else used the Winchester oval proof. In the white with machine marks, the last teen threads to the reciever had to be triangle filed to seat to the shoulder and exrtactor cuts lined up perfectly. you’re beginning to sound like Democrats..I say it’s factory short rifle barrel, but you’re entirled to any opinion you chose, so am I..
it’s the same 15/16th straight octagon barrel 22 ” that in 40-82 in the auction site at the beginning of the thread… look…
no offense i’ve been on other gun forum platforms before, it always seems there a core group that answer by telling me” you’re all wrong”, even when there’s obvious reasons and Winchester proof, to consider my statement as fact, not fiction. I wouldn’t waste my time posting it if i didn’t think it was right.. experts are a dime a dozen in the gun business i’ve found, ..
Ralph Fitzwater said
no offense i’ve been on other gun forum platforms before, it always seems there a core group that answer by telling me” you’re all wrong”, even when there’s obvious reasons and Winchester proof, to consider my statement as fact, not fiction. I wouldn’t waste my time posting it if i didn’t think it was right.. experts are a dime a dozen in the gun business i’ve found, ..
Ralph no offence but, the members on this forum are the foremost experts, historians, and collectors in the world.
It’s hard sometimes to accept another opinion or evaluation on authenticity but, you can be assured on this forum if Bert Hartman and others advise otherwise, you can take it to the bank.
I’ve wished myself they were wrong pre bidding & purchase but, they saved me a pile of money over the years.
Rick C
Ralph Fitzwater said
were it a finished blued barrel i might agree with you, but the front sight dovetail is exactly 1 inch from the muzzle face , right as rain as far as i’m concerned.
According to John Madl’s book, the edge of the front sight to the muzzle face should be 3/4 inch. Looking at your photos, it looks like yours is only 1/2 inch. Not sure where your 1 inch measurement is coming from since your photos contradict that statement. Sorry, but I agree with Bert. Muzzle diameter looks too large as well–also indicative of a cut-down barrel. No hard feelings from my end if you disagree.
Don
November 7, 2015
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Ralph,
Bert isn’t always right but I wouldn’t advise betting he’s wrong. If you think a proof mark that looks authentic proves your case than you have underestimated the skill of today’s fakers. I’d venture a guess I could find an excellent fake (or maybe even genuine!) Winchester proof stamp on our glorious internet before I finish my morning pot of coffee tomorrow. And no, I’m not one of the experts you’ll have the honor of consulting on this forum but if you want to learn from the best stick around but try not to offend the folks who can help you the most.
Mike
Nock the front sight out and see if you have machine marks or file marks
Tony. R said
Nock the front sight out and see if you have machine marks or file marks
Tony, that is good advice. however somewhat dated. back in the day it was easy to pin point winchester jig work in cut dovetails.. since many great barrel makers have perfected these jigs today this can not be the only point taken when assessing authentication. furthermore most barrel proof marks, caliber stamps and barrel addresses are easily reproduced today.
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
The fact that this barrel has proof marks does not mean it has not been messed with by others. It was an original Winchester barrel at one time in it’s life.
January 26, 2011
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I guess I don’t see anything to lead me to believe this is factory. Proof marks clocked to the underside of the barrel, fore-end wood looks wrong and does not match the cap, rounded mag tube plug and odd length screw attaching it, crude caliber stampings, front sight placement, and a very oversized muzzle.
What is the serial number in this rifle? Just curious on the vintage since its blued and whether it’s before or after proof marks being used?
~Gary~
Back to the meat of this thread. The rifle in question went for $4800 with the juice on Wednesday. Far cry from the estimate of 5-6k, and agood deal less than it sold for last year at RIA. Good bet owner just bought it back…..Again
oldcrankyyankee said
Back to the meat of this thread. The rifle in question went for $4800 with the juice on Wednesday. Far cry from the estimate of 5-6k, and agood deal less than it sold for last year at RIA. Good bet owner just bought it back…..Again
Wonder when he’ll get tired of paying the auction house commission.
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