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Yeah, those records have really pissed me off. Over 30 years ago I bought a Model 1892 because it was made in 1892. Now it was made on January 16, 1893. I also bought a Model 1894 back then because it was made in 1894, now it was made in February 1895.
Wonder if there will be further surprises!
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
SB said
I use this list. I got it a long time ago from a post Bert made on Gunbroker.
The below listing are the serial numbers the BATF uses to determine “Antique” status;
Winchester Model 1866, all are pre-1899
Winchester Model 1873 (serial # below 525,923)
Winchester Model 1876, all are pre-1899
Winchester Model 1885 (serial # below 84,701)
Winchester Model 1886 (serial # below 119,193)
Winchester Model 1887 (all were produced before 1899).
Winchester Model 1890 (serial # below 64,521)
Winchester Model 1892 (serial # below 165,432)
Winchester Model 1893 (serial # below 34,204)
Winchester Model 1894 (serial # below 147,685)
Winchester Model 1895 (serial # below 19,872)
Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun (serial # below 63,633)
Winchester-Hotchkiss Bolt Action Rifles, all are pre-1899
Winchester-Lee (U.S. Navy) Straight-Pull 6 mm (serial # below 20,000)
That is not my list, or what the BATF uses.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wincacher said
Yeah, those records have really pissed me off. Over 30 years ago I bought a Model 1892 because it was made in 1892. Now it was made on January 16, 1893. I also bought a Model 1894 back then because it was made in 1894, now it was made in February 1895.
Wonder if there will be further surprises!
It is highly doubtful that there will be any new surprises. For what it is worth, there were several authors who were aware of the PR records as early as the late 1970s, and used them when they published their respective reference books; Roger Rule, The Rifleman’s Rifle, Ned Schwing, The 22 Slide-action rifles, and the Model 42, Herb House, The Model 52, and Dave Riffle, The Greatest Hammerless Repeating Shotgun Ever Built. Each one of these fellows viewed and used information directly from the Polishing Room serialization records, and each one of them apparently chose not to discuss or refute them with the information George Madis published. Considering the fact that George was still highly active at the time when each of the aforementioned authors wrote their books, I find it odd that none of them made a specific point of mentioning that the information they published in regards to dates of manufacture was at considerable odds with George.
Now, my approach is different, and I have no qualms or issue with publishing information that contradicts past reference material… as long as it is accurate and verifiable. I am first and foremost, an Engineer, and in that regard, information is either accurate, or it is not. I am also a very firm believer in following the letter of the law, and I will not condone blatant, willful, violation of said laws and regulations.
The list below is published in “The RED BOOK of WINCHESTER Values” chapter 7… please use it!
Bert
|
TABLE 3 |
|
|
Last Serial Numbers |
|
|
to Qualify as |
|
|
ANTIQUE (pre-1899) |
|
| Henry Repeating Rifle | All |
| Model 1866 | All |
| Model 1873 | 525750 |
| Model 1876 | All |
| Model 1883 Hotchkiss | 84551 |
| Model 1885 Single Shot | 82381 |
| Model 1886 | 118646 |
| Model 1887 Shotgun | 64842 |
| Model 1890 | 64748 |
| Model 1892 | 103328 |
| Model 1893 Shotgun | All |
| Model 1894 | 53941 |
| Model 1895 | 19567 |
| Lee Navy Straight Pull | 1 – 13679, and 15000 – 20000 |
| Model 1897 | 63867 |
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks, Bert. Once I figured it out I started using the Polishing Room numbers in the back of the Thirty Fifth edition of Gun Values last year.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Wincacher said
Thanks, Bert. Once I figured it out I started using the Polishing Room numbers in the back of the Thirty Fifth edition of Gun Values last year.
It has my friend David Kennedy that provided that information to Fjestad.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
SB said
I use this list. I got it a long time ago from a post Bert made on Gunbroker.
The below listing are the serial numbers the BATF uses to determine “Antique” status;
Winchester Model 1866, all are pre-1899
Winchester Model 1873 (serial # below 525,923)
Winchester Model 1876, all are pre-1899
Winchester Model 1885 (serial # below 84,701)
Winchester Model 1886 (serial # below 119,193)
Winchester Model 1887 (all were produced before 1899).
Winchester Model 1890 (serial # below 64,521)
Winchester Model 1892 (serial # below 165,432)
Winchester Model 1893 (serial # below 34,204)
Winchester Model 1894 (serial # below 147,685)
Winchester Model 1895 (serial # below 19,872)
Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun (serial # below 63,633)
Winchester-Hotchkiss Bolt Action Rifles, all are pre-1899
Winchester-Lee (U.S. Navy) Straight-Pull 6 mm (serial # below 20,000)That is not my list, or what the BATF uses.
Bert
Shoot, I’ve had that list bookmarked. I guess I need a new list. 
It was posted at this link
That original post by Bert is nearly 9 years old. I, too, am only interested in the LEGAL BATF cut-off date for 1898 manufacture dates. Is there a new list or is BATF still using this one?
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I just checked out the numbers on the Table 3 above and those ARE THE CODY SERIAL NUMBERS. BATF should then using the CODY serial numbers and this is the correct list. Makes sense to me and I’ll use this list as a guideline. There are only 2 minor differences between it and the SB gunbroker post, Model 1873 (173 fewer) and Model 1885 (112 fewer).
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
In regards to that old post on Gunbroker, I edited (corrected) it so that it shows the verified data. As I mentioned before, the BATF uses the list in Table 3.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
The previous list as coming from Gunbroker are the exact numbers provided in a ” Winchester Manufacturing Dates ” packet of index sized cards created and sold by George Madis. They are the outdated numbers superseded by newer discovery of Polishing Room Records, thus the PRR are the latest authority of accurate data used by CFM.
Anyone know exactly when polishing room records were started by CFM ?
Bill
Bill,
The I believe that the CFM began putting PRR dates on factory letters in 2010. The CFM was aware of the PRR as early as late 2003, and David Kennedy (the former Curator) and I had a lengthy discussion about them in his office in June of 2006. He took me down to the vaults, and I was allowed to handle and view the original PR record books. That is when I became fully aware of what the PR records were, and what importance they had to the Winchester collecting community. David also recognized this, and began taking steps to make the information available to the collecting community. Unfortunately, he ran into a considerable amount of resistance, and ultimately, I believe that it cost him his job (my opinion). This is what David had to say about this topic back in August of 2008. At the time he wrote it, I made it a permanent Sticky post so that it stays at the top of the forum;
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=317678
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I, too, am a researcher with about twenty years of experience, but in the field of genealogy. I ordinarily document and write about the facts of the matter, some of which are very sensitive. It would be my guess, that one of the reasons that other writers did not report to the Winchester community, what Bert has taken for action, is because it was not a part of their overall objective. Still, the facts of this matter should be appreciated by the vast majority of us, and as time moves forward so will the acceptance of this research.
Bert,
As a newer collector, and I’m sure that group, thanks for the history, and stedfast effort to get the truest information to date in the hands of all collectors.
For the benefit of all, accuracy is necessary, and an ongoing process. The effort also from the collectors’ doing individual research & surveys benefits all for the enhancement of the collecting community and future.
Thanks to all you guys.
What shocks me is the date of 2010 being when CFM started using polishing records on letters. That seems so current.
I’ll definitely take a harder look at a pre-2010 letter shown to me regarding a gun’s classification. Again, as a newer collector, this information is very helpful.
I also understand the ” convienience ” of two sets of numbers when sellers/dealers use them to drive up a price & profit. Buyer beware all over again !
Bill
Normal Winchesters are not NFA weapons unless you saw off the barrel.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob any Antique Firearm is considered a NFA firearm just ake the
time to go to their website and scroll through what is considered a antique
firearm
1873man said
Normal Winchesters are not NFA weapons unless you saw off the barrel.
Bob
Bob,
That is not quite true. All of the post-1898 production Trapper Carbines (Model 1873, 1885, 1892, and 1894) are NFA firearms.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
quantrez said
If you want to go by the ATF rules this is what they will send you to
This has nothing to do the discussion at hand… keep your posts on topic, or I will delete them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
quantrez said
Bob any Antique Firearm is considered a NFA firearm just ake the
time to go to their website and scroll through what is considered a antique
firearm
You are not correct. There are several classifications of firearms, and “Antiques” are not “NFA” firearms.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I looked up Section 2.2 of the link, Antique Firearms, and came up with this:
NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually
manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the
United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an
antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition
availability standards of the definition.
THAT WOULD MAKE ALL MODEL 1873’S NON-ANTIQUE BECAUSE AMMO FOR THOSE RIFLES’ CALIBERS ARE STILL BEING MADE.
Then I found this:
Section 2.1 Types of NFA firearms
The NFA defines the specific types of firearms subject to the provisions of the Act. These definitions
describe the function, design, configuration and/or dimensions that weapons must have to be NFA
firearms.
2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of
an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull
of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
So it appears that the ATF link above is meaningless for our purposes.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
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