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January 20, 2023 - 3:22 pm
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A couple of mates from down under have posted pictures of their high walls that they have collected which were made right near the end of final production.  The serial numbers appear to be close together and the rifles have similar characteristics with Helm triggers, pistol grip stocks, no checkering and in .22 or .22 WRF.  One has the serial number 139,555 which is about 175 from the last supposed serial number.  They appear to have been imported by J.T. Lake.  Could somebody still special order these rifles that late in production when Winchester was just basically turning out Winders and high wall muskets? Today, these rifles have been converted to wildcats, .22 Sprinter and .22 Falcon which were based on the .303 case.

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January 20, 2023 - 3:37 pm
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Old-Win said
The serial numbers appear to be close together and the rifles have similar characteristics with Helm triggers, pistol grip stocks, no checkering and in .22 or .22 WRF.

  

There was a Helm extreme prong buttplate used on Schuetzen models, but no Helm trigger; do you mean, perhaps, the close-coupled DS triggers which were unique to Winchesters?

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January 20, 2023 - 4:11 pm
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No, they are the wide spaced and lazy S lever.

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January 20, 2023 - 4:23 pm
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Old-Win said
No, they are the wide spaced and lazy S lever.

  

Factory called those Schuetzen double-sets. 

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January 20, 2023 - 5:52 pm
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John Campbell alleged that the last Single Shot serial number was in the 13973x range, but I am relatively certain that the last known serial number was actually 140000… I had my hands on it at the Las Vegas Antiques Arms show more than 20-years ago. 

That stated, Winchester assembled at least a few hundred “parts clean-up” rifles after regular production ended in June 1920.  To back up a bit, from March 1918 to June 1920, 99.9% of the total Single Shot production consisted of the Model 87 (3rd variation) Winder Muskets.  Production of the 2nd variation (high-wall) Winder Muskets had ended in early 1918.  After the regular Single Shot production ended, Winchester still had a fair number of parts on hand.  A substantial number of those parts were for the higher-grade Special Sporting or Schuetzen high-wall rifles.  This prompted Winchester to assemble a fair number of said rifles.  The majority of them are found in the 139538 – 140000 serial range, and these are the specific Single Shots that I have been surveying for the past 30-years.  Accordingly, I would really appreciate it if you could put me in contact with those Mates of yours that own them so that I can fully document the rifles.

Bert – [email protected]

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January 20, 2023 - 5:53 pm
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Old-Win said
No, they are the wide spaced and lazy S lever.

  

Schuetzen Double-set triggers and Long loop levers.

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January 20, 2023 - 6:03 pm
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Bert H. said
John Campbell alleged that the last Single Shot serial number was in the 13973x range, but I am relatively certain that the last known serial number was actually 140000… I had my hands on it at the Las Vegas Antiques Arms show more than 20-years ago. 

  

And you didn’t leave the show with it still in your hands?

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January 20, 2023 - 6:17 pm
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clarence said

Bert H. said

John Campbell alleged that the last Single Shot serial number was in the 13973x range, but I am relatively certain that the last known serial number was actually 140000… I had my hands on it at the Las Vegas Antiques Arms show more than 20-years ago. 

  

And you didn’t leave the show with it still in your hands?

  

It is a 32-40 caliber Schuetzen Rifle and the owner at that time had it priced like it was a 24-carat gold plated & engraved (which it was not).  I seem to remember a $27,000 price tag on it.  I would have paid him about half that much for it and told him why.

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January 20, 2023 - 6:24 pm
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Bert H. said

 It is a 32-40 caliber Schuetzen Rifle and the owner at that time had it priced like it was a 24-carat gold plated & engraved (which it was not).  I seem to remember a $27,000 price tag on it.  I would have paid him about half that much for it and told him why.

  

Sounds like a Vegas sucker-price, for sure.  If you could have caught the seller at another show, where the fat-cats weren’t so abundant, maybe you could have bought it for that price.

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January 20, 2023 - 6:58 pm
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clarence said

Bert H. said

 It is a 32-40 caliber Schuetzen Rifle and the owner at that time had it priced like it was a 24-carat gold plated & engraved (which it was not).  I seem to remember a $27,000 price tag on it.  I would have paid him about half that much for it and told him why.

  

Sounds like a Vegas sucker-price, for sure.  If you could have caught the seller at another show, where the fat-cats weren’t so abundant, maybe you could have bought it for that price.

  

Maybe…  On the plus side, I walked out of that show with the 405 W.C.F. high-wall in hand, and an agreed upon (reasonable) price for a nice 20-ga high-wall.Cool

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January 21, 2023 - 3:49 am
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Bert H. said

clarence said

Bert H. said

 It is a 32-40 caliber Schuetzen Rifle and the owner at that time had it priced like it was a 24-carat gold plated & engraved (which it was not).  I seem to remember a $27,000 price tag on it.  I would have paid him about half that much for it and told him why.

  

Sounds like a Vegas sucker-price, for sure.  If you could have caught the seller at another show, where the fat-cats weren’t so abundant, maybe you could have bought it for that price.

  

Maybe…  On the plus side, I walked out of that show with the 405 W.C.F. high-wall in hand, and an agreed upon (reasonable) price for a nice 20-ga high-wall.Cool

  

Wish you hadn’t brought up the 20ga high wall. Still kicking myself for passing on one at the orphanage early in my collecting career. Had no idea what it was and they didn’t either.

 

Mike

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January 21, 2023 - 3:54 am
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Mike,

You would have only been kicking yourself in the Arse up to the instant you tried shooting it!  The Solid frame version barely weight 5lbs, and when it goes Boom, you will feel what it really feels like to get kicked!

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January 21, 2023 - 3:57 am
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Bert H. said

clarence said

Bert H. said

John Campbell alleged that the last Single Shot serial number was in the 13973x range, but I am relatively certain that the last known serial number was actually 140000… I had my hands on it at the Las Vegas Antiques Arms show more than 20-years ago. 

  

And you didn’t leave the show with it still in your hands?

  

It is a 32-40 caliber Schuetzen Rifle and the owner at that time had it priced like it was a 24-carat gold plated & engraved (which it was not).  I seem to remember a $27,000 price tag on it.  I would have paid him about half that much for it and told him why.

  

Bert-

If it truly was the last Single Shot would it be worth $13,500? I like early numbers, my dad was a fan of “last of…”

Never quite understood the attraction but must admit I stared at the last Chevrolet Corvair at the Pate Museum in Weatherford, TX for awhile. It was incomplete because they ran out of parts. 

 

Mike

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January 21, 2023 - 4:12 am
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TXGunNut said

Never quite understood the attraction but must admit I stared at the last Chevrolet Corvair at the Pate Museum in Weatherford, TX for awhile. It was incomplete because they ran out of parts. 

  I had one for a short time & loved driving it.  Very responsive & good power for its engine size.  Killed by hysterical hype.

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January 21, 2023 - 4:37 am
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clarence said

TXGunNut said

Never quite understood the attraction but must admit I stared at the last Chevrolet Corvair at the Pate Museum in Weatherford, TX for awhile. It was incomplete because they ran out of parts. 

  I had one for a short time & loved driving it.  Very responsive & good power for its engine size.  Killed by hysterical hype.

  

I actually read Nader’s book, lost all respect for him and safety activists in general. The Subarus have finally taken over Denver but at one time the Corvair was THE way to get around in the winter.

Mike

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January 21, 2023 - 1:30 pm
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Bert H. said
Mike,

You would have only been kicking yourself in the Arse up to the instant you tried shooting it!  The Solid frame version barely weight 5lbs, and when it goes Boom, you will feel what it really feels like to get kicked!

  

Recently I was thinking about the 20 gauge in the Single-shot model.  Seems I have seen in both, “High Wall” and “Low Wall” versions.  I don’t believe these were different options when one was ordered.  How did these two versions come about?   

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January 21, 2023 - 3:55 pm
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steve004 said

Recently I was thinking about the 20 gauge in the Single-shot model.  Seems I have seen in both, “High Wall” and “Low Wall” versions.  I don’t believe these were different options when one was ordered.  How did these two versions come about?   

  

For a non-ejector gun, the LW would obviously be faster to reload; though not as fast as a break-action double.  Yet catalog shows only the HW version.  I suspect this model was put on the market because sales of the SS had slowed, & the factory had a surplus of HW rcvrs.  But a decent quality Belgian double could be bought for the same money, & an excellent Stevens double for not much more.  Which would you choose for bird hunting?

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January 21, 2023 - 6:14 pm
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steve004 said

Bert H. said

Mike,

You would have only been kicking yourself in the Arse up to the instant you tried shooting it!  The Solid frame version barely weight 5lbs, and when it goes Boom, you will feel what it really feels like to get kicked!

  

Recently I was thinking about the 20 gauge in the Single-shot model.  Seems I have seen in both, “High Wall” and “Low Wall” versions.  I don’t believe these were different options when one was ordered.  How did these two versions come about?   

  

Steve,

With the exception of just (1) very early Single Shot shotgun that was apparently a low-wall, all of the late production 20-ga Single Shots (manufactured in 1913 & 1914) were high-walls.  I discussed this in the article that was published in the Fall 2016 edition of the Collector Magazine.  The “two” variations are Solid frame or Take Down frame.

At the time I wrote the article, I had surveyed a total of (71) Single Shot shotguns.  As of today, I have (96) of them documented, and an estimated total production number of just (770).  Of that number, (40) are Solid frame, and (56) are Take Down frame.

The attached picture below shows both variations, and the Take Down is the lone specimen known to have been special ordered with fancy stocks and a Solid Ribbed barrel!

Bert

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January 22, 2023 - 12:41 am
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Bert H. said

steve004 said

Bert H. said

Mike,

You would have only been kicking yourself in the Arse up to the instant you tried shooting it!  The Solid frame version barely weight 5lbs, and when it goes Boom, you will feel what it really feels like to get kicked!

  

Recently I was thinking about the 20 gauge in the Single-shot model.  Seems I have seen in both, “High Wall” and “Low Wall” versions.  I don’t believe these were different options when one was ordered.  How did these two versions come about?   

  

Steve,

With the exception of just (1) very early Single Shot shotgun that was apparently a low-wall, all of the late production 20-ga Single Shots (manufactured in 1913 & 1914) were high-walls.  I discussed this in the article that was published in the Fall 2016 edition of the Collector Magazine.  The “two” variations are Solid frame or Take Down frame.

At the time I wrote the article, I had surveyed a total of (71) Single Shot shotguns.  As of today, I have (96) of them documented, and an estimated total production number of just (770).  Of that number, (40) are Solid frame, and (56) are Take Down frame.

The attached picture below shows both variations, and the Take Down is the lone specimen known to have been special ordered with fancy stocks and a Solid Ribbed barrel!

Bert

Calendar-1885-20-Gauge-cropped.jpgImage Enlarger

  

Bert – I just read your article.  Excellent job!  I learned a lot.  It sure is interesting that they chambered them for 3 inch when 3 inch 20 gauge shells weren’t even commercially available – and the 20 gauge Model 12’s made during the same time period weren’t even chambered for 2 and 3/4 inch shells.  Such mysteries are intriguing but frustrating as well.

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January 22, 2023 - 1:26 pm
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Bert – 

In the Highwall 20 gauge, do you  have #113711 in your survey?

 

By the way, I love that special order 20 gauge with the fancy rib and solid rib barrel.  Someone who marched to the beat of a different drummer ordered that one.

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