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I’m starting to see the gun cannibals now offering detachable Winchester lower tangs with a Cody letter included so one can build one’s own Frankenchester following original specs.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
This is nothing new, it has been going on for years, I would say at least 20 years. The only thing you see is its more visible since Ebay use to not let the major gun parts on the site but now they are letting guys get away with it or have changed their policies. Back then I added up what a guy made from the sale of a parted out gun and he could double his money, I haven’t done it lately but now I’m seeing them buying the cheap guns from auction houses and parting them.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
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Guess it shouldn’t surprise us as we’ve undoubtedly seen the results of transactions like these. Seems a shame to dismantle an old Winchester for parts but if it was a high condition collector’s piece they wouldn’t do it. As has been said before every original rifle parted out increases the rarity and, in theory anyway, the value of the remaining specimens. And to be honest we all need parts now and then so if we want original parts somewhere an original rifle must be parted out.
Selling the lower tang and Cody letter is a bit different matter in my opinion. The apparent intent is not to repair existing rifles but to create a high condition clone of a rifle that no longer truly exists. In my mind that’s fraud, buyer beware.
TXGunNut said
Selling the lower tang and Cody letter is a bit different matter in my opinion. The apparent intent is not to repair existing rifles but to create a high condition clone of a rifle that no longer truly exists. In my mind that’s fraud, buyer beware.
Exactly!
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Referring to TXGunNut saying “we all need original parts now and then” and with the notion on this board that if you replace parts from an original gun it is no longer “original” because it does not have the “original” parts specific to that rifle when it was manufactured.
For example: You have an original 73 and the toggle links breaks. You order/buy original parts and replace them. Is the gun no longer “original” because you replaced the “original specific to that gun” toggle links? I would think it was still original because the parts were original and not repos. Who knows; a rifle you own could have had internal parts, barrel, etc… replaced at some point in its life time and we would never know the difference. Well, except maybe Bob! (1873man) RR on cody letters don’t specifically say what was repaired/replaced……
I guess my ultimate questions is: At what point is an original winchester not “original” anymore? With the replacement of one part? Two? Specific parts?……..I know literally speaking, even if one screw is replaced, the gun is not “orginal”.
What are you guys’ opinion??
Sorry for being so long winded. But i would really like to know how you guys feel about this.
I have had this discussion over and over with a dear friend of mine.
We have bought, sold and traded in the ” same circles” for a while now.
I’m more of a purist, I guess. Most rifles might have to have a part or two over its lifetime.
IMO when you set out to build a rifle from parts, albeit an expensive or collectors piece, and
then market it as “original”, its fraud in my eyes! Others would disagree I imagine, but if you
do this for your benefit, that’s different….
November 7, 2015
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Wish I could answer that but when I buy a 70-80% pre-war or older gun I have little doubt that some minor parts have been replaced. Maybe they have, maybe they haven’t but if the correct parts were used and the repair is 60-80 years old or older I doubt I’ll ever notice. Many of the guns I (and many of you) buy have been used hard for generations, things break under those conditions. Maybe “correct” is a better term than “original”. If, on the other hand someone is offering a 95% gun I think it should have all the parts it left the factory with. No more, no less.
TXGunNut said
Wish I could answer that but when I buy a 70-80% pre-war or older gun I have little doubt that some minor parts have been replaced. Maybe they have, maybe they haven’t but if the correct parts were used and the repair is 60-80 years old or older I doubt I’ll ever notice. Many of the guns I (and many of you) buy have been used hard for generations, things break under those conditions. Maybe “correct” is a better term than “original”. If, on the other hand someone is offering a 95% gun I think it should have all the parts it left the factory with. No more, no less.
I think this was the answer i was looking for. Well said TXGunNut.
One way to look at it, would you rather have a nice model 94 with a Marbles sight from the 1950s or the correct sight bought off eBay?
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
Gotta agree with the spirit of TXGunNut’s philosophy. A buggered screw replaced with an original one without flaws from a donor rifle is an improvement. So would be a damaged toggle link replacement from an original. A barrel replacement starts to become questionable. As to the tangs and receivers with serial numbers, I strongly opine that we members of WACA should track those that appear on eBay, GI, etc. and periodically submit them to Cody. They then should mark their records “DESTROYED”. That would go a long way towards reducing the fraud in Winchester collecting.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Wincacher said
Gotta agree with the spirit of TXGunNut’s philosophy. A buggered screw replaced with an original one without flaws from a donor rifle is an improvement. So would be a damaged toggle link replacement from an original. A barrel replacement starts to become questionable. As to the tangs and receivers with serial numbers, I strongly opine that we members of WACA should track those that appear on eBay, GI, etc. and periodically submit them to Cody. They then should mark their records “DESTROYED”. That would go a long way towards reducing the fraud in Winchester collecting.
The CFM records office has no possible way to verify when, or if, a specific serial number has been “destroyed”, and more importantly, they are not going to alter or deface the original factory records in the manner you mention. We collectors could track them, but at this point, it is water under the bridge. As Bob (and others) are fully aware, people have been parting out old Winchesters for decades… old Albert Buckingham was a master at it for as long as I can remember.
It is my personal opinion that the various surveys being conducted by a number of WACA members is the single best method to track what shenanigans have transpired in more recent times. Both Michael and I record detailed information about the guns we survey, including pictures of them when possible. Thus far, we have identified at least a few dozen illicit (deceitfully) altered guns, and then posted that information for anyone interested in reading it when they come back up for sale. I personally get at least a few phone calls and emails every month from someone asking for advice about a Winchester being offered to them that may not be what it appears to be. On more that a few occasion, I have been able to confirm their suspicions.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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