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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/849213411
I found much of interest here. First, it qualifies as a historic Winchester, as verified by the museum letter. Darn rare to find a historic Winchester that can be traced to a woman as the original owner. I have not heard of Elsie Clews before but apparently she made a name for herself. Maybe I should buy the rifle just to get the book – it does look interesting.
I’ve stared at the photos of the barrel knurling many times. It’s not mentioned in the letter. I’ve not seen this style before – where slight barrel flats seem to be added underneath the knurling?
What observations do others have about this rifle? It’s certainly unfortunate that the factory inscription of her name was removed. Maybe a subsequent male owner couldn’t abide a woman’s name on his rifle? Maybe his hunting buddies teased him and called him Elsie?
And finally, speculations as to what it will sell for?
Where is the name on the gun? Near the 1897? One side looks a lot better than the other. Stock fitment and buttplate may be issues. I would have to actually see this gun in person to make a estimate.
Chuck said
Where is the name on the gun? Near the 1897? One side looks a lot better than the other. Stock fitment and buttplate may be issues. I would have to actually see this gun in person to make a estimate.
I think the inscription has been removed but was somewhere on the left side of the receiver (probably above the “1897” that remains). This probably explains why the left side of the receiver looks better – must be touched up. And yes, there appear to be issues with the buttplate fit. There are some aspects here that don’t help.
Comments about the barrel knurling?
Interesting how it was returned and repaired about two weeks after it was originally shipped. That’s pretty quick to need a repair. I suspect it was some alteration. It wouldn’t have been the inscription because that is listed as part of the original shipment. I wonder if the knurling could have been added at that point? By the way, I do not believe it was shipped with four cartridges.
“4 catridges” refers to the 4 cartridge magazine. I’m pretty sure John Ulrich didn’t hand engrave the barrel matting either (as the seller is claiming). Seller did mention the butt plate is a replacement though. Seller also claims it would be an “easy fix” to restore the removed engraving…I don’t think so. Too bad about all alterations with this rifle. I do like the look of the barrel matting though, but haven’t seen that style with the top flat either.
steve004 said
Maybe I should buy the rifle just to get the book – it does look interesting.
Save yourself a few thousand: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30432395969&cm_sp=Searchmod-_-NullResults-_-BDP
deerhunter said
I’m pretty sure John Ulrich didn’t hand engrave the barrel matting either (as the seller is claiming).
That part of the description is nonsense. But since the matting isn’t included on the letter, it would appear that was the reason for the R&R notation.
The more I look at it, I think the name was not inscribed on the receiver above the, “1897” but immediately to the left of the 1897. Note picture #24.
steve004 said
The more I look at it, I think the name was not inscribed on the receiver above the, “1897” but immediately to the left of the 1897. Note picture #24.
I agree Steve.
Al
Interesting to say the least. Elsie Clews Parsons…rich anthropologist and dedicated activist…likely of most every sort, to include, feminist. What would she be doing with her name engraved on a turn of the century Winchester rifle at a rally that shows no indication of such an engraving – pun intended. My first thoughts have to do with a male member of her family (Dad?) giving it to her on, perhaps, her graduation from college (1896?) in a failed attempt to change the direction he saw her life heading – or maybe her husband gave it to her! Funny thoughts for sure, especially when one reference has her father (was it?) knowing the likes of Teddy Roosevelt. That, and the engraving just going poof as if it was never even there to begin with. I mean, like we talk about that kind of magic most every day…but this…this is a Winchester factory letter!!!
James
steve004 said
The more I look at it, I think the name was not inscribed on the receiver above the, “1897” but immediately to the left of the 1897. Note picture #24.
Right, but that’s still part of the receiver. “Scratched out”? Looks to me like a grinder was used. “Easily fixed”? Yeah, for several hundred’s worth of hand-filing & polishing, bluing, & engraving; though the uniqueness of the gun makes it worth it.
January 26, 2011
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deerhunter said
“4 catridges” refers to the 4 cartridge magazine. I’m pretty sure John Ulrich didn’t hand engrave the barrel matting either (as the seller is claiming). Seller did mention the butt plate is a replacement though. Seller also claims it would be an “easy fix” to restore the removed engraving…I don’t think so. Too bad about all alterations with this rifle. I do like the look of the barrel matting though, but haven’t seen that style with the top flat either.
I agree with Don. This description is somewhat humorous. “THE ANNOTATION ON THE FACTORY LETTER OF 4 CARTRIDGES IS A MYSTERY TO THE MUSEUM AND THE WINCHESTER MAY HAVE BEEN SHIPPED WITH 4 CARTRIDGES FROM THE FACTORY”. I have several with a 4 cartridge notation …… I’m sure the gals reading the ledgers know what it means.
I don’t believe the matted (rather than knurled) barrel is factory work. I’ve own two matted 1894’s, still have one round barrel, and they don’t look like that. The caliber marking looks strange too. Although interesting, the whole rifle just doesn’t give me a good vibe.
~Gary~
pdog72 said
This description is somewhat humorous. “THE ANNOTATION ON THE FACTORY LETTER OF 4 CARTRIDGES IS A MYSTERY TO THE MUSEUM AND THE WINCHESTER MAY HAVE BEEN SHIPPED WITH 4 CARTRIDGES FROM THE FACTORY”. I have several with a 4 cartridge notation …… I’m sure the gals reading the ledgers know what it means.
If you can read this seller’s stupid palaver without quickly realizing you’re dealing with a champion BS artist, you ought to stay away from on-line auctions. But look at his sales rating! It’s the champion BS artists who are most successful on GB as on ebay! Which should tell you all you need to know about the judgment & intelligence of the average “collector.”
However, the seller’s ignorance & self-serving BS doesn’t alter the fact that this is a very interesting & somewhat historic gun worthy of a meticulous restoration. I wish I could afford to buy it & send it to Turnnbull with a blank check. Unfortunately, I couldn’t afford the shipping.
I bid a couple of times but someone had already placed a higher bid. I’d hunt with it for where the bid is right now. I have a ton of .25-35 ammo.
Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.
I’ve had several “94,s that mention “4cartridge mag.” or “4 cartridge” I guess it depends on who wrote the entry in the ledger, just how it was entered. Without the mention of matting in the letter , other than the seller, who says it was factory done. From the response on restoring or fixing this piece, it kind of re-enforces My thoughts on the value of restoring a unique piece. I think it would add to the value to have it properly restored rather than leave it the way it is, at least I would have it done if it were mine.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
I am continuing to enjoy everyone’s comments. It seems we’ve yet to find anyone who has seen this specific style knurling before. It is plausible that the knurling was performed at the factory when the rifle was returned about two weeks after the original shipment. We’ve run into this before – puzzling over what the return and repair entries mean. Wouldn’t it have been wonderful (for collectors) if at the time of the work, they would have made a one or two word entry in the ledger (e.g. “add knurling”). Another possibility is the knurling was done as part of the original order and simply wasn’t mentioned in the ledger. We run into this – where not all special order features are noted. The ledger entry lines have a limited amount of space. Perhaps after noting the four cartridges and the engrave Elsie Clews, they were out of room? Two things I know for sure. I like the knurling and I am impressed with it. Secondly, it is at $575 and I sure would buy it and shoot it for that 🙂
steve004 said
Wouldn’t it have been wonderful (for collectors) if at the time of the work, they would have made a one or two word entry in the ledger (e.g. “add knurling”).
That could never have happened, because as a couple of others have already pointed out, Winchester (& every other maker) called this kind of roll-mark down the length of a barrel MATTING. You can argue that matting is only a special form of knurling, but if the lady who ordered it had said “please knurl the top of the barrel,” she’d have been told, “sorry, we don’t know what you mean.”
clarence said
steve004 said
Wouldn’t it have been wonderful (for collectors) if at the time of the work, they would have made a one or two word entry in the ledger (e.g. “add knurling”).That could never have happened, because as a couple of others have already pointed out, Winchester (& every other maker) called this kind of roll-mark down the length of a barrel MATTING. You can argue that matting is only a special form of knurling, but if the lady who ordered it had said “please knurl the top of the barrel,” she’d have been told, “sorry, we don’t know what you mean.”
Clarence – thank you for your thoughts. However, my basic point remains the same. Let me rephrase it – I think that at the time of the return/repair, it would have been wonderful if they would have added a one or two work entry in the ledger (e.g. “add matting”).
January 26, 2011
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Steve
The matting is very close to the wavy pattern they used and is certainly possible that’s is correct. The part that bothers me is the three-flat appearance on a round barrel. The outer line of the matting is interrupted in some areas as well. The one I have in front of me is a continuous line the whole way on both sides. Its on the back page of the Fall 2018 Collector.
If it has the JPP marking on the underside of the barrel I would be inclined to change my mind and chalk it up to seeing a new style of matting. Otherwise, the absence of it in the letter, and the inscription ground off ruins it for me. Again, not to say its couldn’t be correct, and interesting for sure.
If you are excited about it, bid on it. At the right price its still a cool gun. You will have the only one like it. Its just not a $10k+ matted, inscribed 1894. Buy what you like …….. like what you buy. Thanks for posting.
~Gary~
steve004 said
Clarence – thank you for your thoughts. However, my basic point remains the same. Let me rephrase it – I think that at the time of the return/repair, it would have been wonderful if they would have added a one or two work entry in the ledger (e.g. “add matting”).
I’d like to thank Clarence for his thoughts, too. The vast amount of knowledge that he, and some of the other experts here, presents to discussions is extraordinary.
James
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