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I wonder why Merz switched the butt stock???
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December 11, 2021 - 6:56 pm
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Hello All,

i first saw this rifle (Model 1892 SN 442255) in May of this year (2021) and then on Merz’s site in early September.  In both of those instances it was a standard sporting rifle with full octagon barrel, full mag, and the typical rifle butt stock.  Today it popped up on Merz’s site again but this time is has a fluted shotgun butt stock on it.  No mention of the switch in the description.  https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1892/winchester-model-1892-rifle-in-caliber-25-20.cfm?gun_id=101802619

IMG_0977.jpegImage Enlarger   The original butt stock

WINCHESTER-MODEL-1892-RIFLE-IN-CALIBER-25-20_101725618_13414_FEF16BBE3544C15A.jpegImage Enlarger  The same stock in the first Merz listing.

WINCHESTER-MODEL-1892-RIFLE-IN-CALIBER-25-20_101802619_13414_6CF93C4E2A94C63D.jpegImage Enlarger  And the shotgun butt now on the rifle.

Be careful out there!

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

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December 11, 2021 - 7:49 pm
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Be careful out there!

Michael  

  So true!

 92’s and 94’s in a non-letterable range have a lot of common parts. Winchester made them with close fitting interchangeable parts for ease of production. For years people, (gun dealers, collectors, gunsmiths) have been changing the parts to upgrade, repair, or create the gun of their choice. Although you can’t get a letter you can troll the internet with the serial number. Donor guns and upgrades are not worth what originals are. T/R

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December 11, 2021 - 11:28 pm
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I don’t see any proof that Leroy changed this.  Maybe that is how he got it?

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December 11, 2021 - 11:52 pm
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Chuck said
I don’t see any proof that Leroy changed this.  Maybe that is how he got it?  

Chuck,

He had the gun listed in Sept with the original rifle butt stock.  And now here it is in December of the same year and it has a shotgun butt Stock on it.  What are the chances that he sold it.  Some one changed the butt stock.  Leroy bought it back.  And re-listed it?

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

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December 12, 2021 - 12:16 am
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Michael, I did not read your original post as closely as I should have.  It he in fact owned this gun during the changes then he had someone do the work.  Sorry.

This is not directed at you but the group in general.

I just get tired of people complaining about Leroy.  If people here don’t like him why do they continually go to his website?  I know a lot of gun dealers that are no worse than him.  My experiences with Leroy have always been good.  You have to remember that I look at his stuff in person and only talk to him about things I would consider buying.

This is how I treat almost all dealers.

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December 12, 2021 - 1:02 am
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Chuck said I know a lot of gun dealers that are no worse than him.  

Of course.  That doesn’t seem much of a recommendation to me.  And this particular “upgrade” is as blatant as they get.

I’d know nothing of his tricks if they weren’t exposed here.

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December 12, 2021 - 3:17 am
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I’ve pointed out concerns in other post about some of his guns. I don’t think he’ll lose any sleep over my comment or thoughts if he even follows this forum now. Being fair, he might be unaware of the “swapping” going on but, he owns a business & therefore open to reviews & comments.

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December 12, 2021 - 3:25 am
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It appears the tang sight was changed too.  RDB

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December 12, 2021 - 4:49 am
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 It’s now a donor gun, you take off parts of value and replace them with cheaper parts, then you blow it off cheap. Does this surprise you? I’ve seen it done at gun shows with the public walking by. If you buy the donor gun it’s a shooter so who cares, you know it’s not right. The problem is when you buy the upgraded gun for real money.

 I’ve heard collectors complain that Colts have been messed with, no worse than Winchesters. The thing Colts have going for them is the Kopec letter. John keeps track of guns he’s seen, if they changed he’ll tell you if you ask.

 These guns are just screwed together gun parts. If you don’t know what your looking at get help. Having a expert look over a gun on approval is smart. T/R

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December 12, 2021 - 11:21 am
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TR said
The thing Colts have going for them is the Kopec letter. John keeps track of guns he’s seen, if they changed he’ll tell you if you ask.

Yes, but only for the Colt Cavalry and Artillery Model variations of the Single Action Army revolver.

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December 12, 2021 - 11:47 am
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It is possible that the rifle was sold, the stock was broken during shipment, and returned. The current stock being a replacement for the broken one. It happens.

Dana

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December 12, 2021 - 12:40 pm
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I had to go back & look at all the photos in the ad. Actually for $1575 I think it’s price accordingly. Decent blue, a tang sight, excellent bore, & now excellent wood.

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December 12, 2021 - 1:36 pm
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mrcvs said

TR said
The thing Colts have going for them is the Kopec letter. John keeps track of guns he’s seen, if they changed he’ll tell you if you ask.

Yes, but only for the Colt Cavalry and Artillery Model variations of the Single Action Army revolver.  

  Yes, I keep forgetting Colt made other guns. I have just been focused on the Cavalry and the civilian counterparts.

 I’m comfortable knowing what I’m looking at when I buy a SAA as long as I take it apart. But anyone can be comfortable with one of John’s letters. It would be nice if you could do the same with a Winchester. T/R  

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December 12, 2021 - 5:54 pm
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I still don’t see any proof of who messed with this gun.  It is not uncommon for dealers to sell the same gun several if not many times.

clarence said

Chuck said I know a lot of gun dealers that are no worse than him.  

Of course.  That doesn’t seem much of a recommendation to me.  And this particular “upgrade” is as blatant as they get.

I’d know nothing of his tricks if they weren’t exposed here.  

Other than selling a messed with gun what tricks can you prove that he actually did?  I was not making a recommendation but rather a statement that a lot of dealers sell messed up guns. 

I won’t mention names but I traveled with a dealer for about 25 years that did a lot of restoration.  I got to know who did his work and also which dealers were his customers.  Some of these well known dealers are thought to be more honest than they really are.

I’ve been trying the last year or so to get his wife to give me access to his restoration records. If I can ever get access I will have decades of restoration info.

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December 12, 2021 - 6:17 pm
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mrcvs said

TR said
The thing Colts have going for them is the Kopec letter. John keeps track of guns he’s seen, if they changed he’ll tell you if you ask.

Yes, but only for the Colt Cavalry and Artillery Model variations of the Single Action Army revolver.  

I’m not sure this is totally correct?  I have both of his books and talked with him a few times.  He did do an awful lot of study on the civilian models too.  He may not give letters on the civilian guns or track them as closely but I’m sure he is a wealth of knowledge.

Tom, here is a gun I bought recently.  This one is listed by serial number in Kopek’s book.Colt-Calvary.jpgImage Enlarger

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December 12, 2021 - 10:06 pm
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 Chuck,

 A lot of history in those Cavalry’s. Take good care of it they are getting very hard to find. Tom

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December 12, 2021 - 11:05 pm
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Chuck said

I’m not sure this is totally correct?  I have both of his books and talked with him a few times.  He did do an awful lot of study on the civilian models too.  He may not give letters on the civilian guns or track them as closely but I’m sure he is a wealth of knowledge.

Tom, here is a gun I bought recently.  This one is listed by serial number in Kopek’s book.Colt-Calvary.jpgImage Enlarger  

While a Colt letter is good to have with regards to Colt Cavalry and Artillery Model revolvers, a Kopec letter is priceless.  Here’s a particularly nice Artillery Model revolver I purchased a few months ago with a Gold Seal of Approval letter.

C8214F64-7C16-45BB-9596-2FAAB804578B-1.jpegImage EnlargerF8BE700F-454F-4A57-B89E-A90A92EB9936.jpegImage EnlargerC65352C5-9E6C-418E-9BC3-7D9378C7B5E7.jpegImage Enlarger4FBC80CC-DCEF-4BAC-BB81-392877333A25.jpegImage Enlarger775A1F0C-C445-4369-B230-2E5CBEB569C7.jpegImage Enlarger61991295-02FB-4414-B6B6-6334BF15AB9E.jpegImage EnlargerA19D0F12-FEAA-4C37-AEA7-FF4BFFFA1444.jpegImage EnlargerB45ACED9-368A-4129-A8A0-9E19AF1A0079.jpegImage EnlargerB63B9C11-E3A2-4105-B484-E2ACD8A132B8.jpegImage EnlargerF277FE07-71D8-4454-83EE-1056A3EA85CB.jpegImage Enlarger

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December 12, 2021 - 11:08 pm
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It looks like the stock was scavanged from the first listing.  Of course, we don’t know that it was broken in shipment, returned and then fixed a replacement stock.  There is a low probability this is the case.

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December 12, 2021 - 11:38 pm
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I’m with you Steve. Good eye by Michael & never hurts to keep any seller honest. ?

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December 13, 2021 - 1:35 am
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RickC said
I’m with you Steve. Good eye by Michael & never hurts to keep any seller honest. ?  

Rick, I can promise you, neither Merz, Collectors, nor any other big dealer, is kept “honest,” or has his business hurt in any way, by comments made on this board, or for that matter, any other!  The fat-cats who make up most of their clientele, like the ones who pay fantastic prices in on-line auctions, do not participate! 

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