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Hello, this question applies to rifles made between say 1930 and 1963.
Some rifles I see on a sites like Gun Broker have sellers offering Winchester Rifles in the original box. When compares to a Google search for “Winchester Rifle NIB” some of the boxes look different. Many appear to have a Red W, or a picture of a rifle or are red and black plaid pattern or something other than a label stuck on a card board box. Are there any general guidelines for telling what is authentic and what is fake? From what I have seen, it appears there is ink somewhere on the cardboard, not just labels. I understand the rifle is more important than the box. Adding a nice box may increase the value $700 or more dollars. I would like to own at least one NIB .22 or Model 70 but I don’t want to pay a suckers price for someones handy work. So how can you tell? Or better yet what indicates a fake?
November 5, 2014
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FLT-
This is a rather difficult subject given the number of obviously fake “NIB” Winchesters out there. If one can make a “bad” fake box, one must assume that one can also make a “good” fake box.
Case in point the GunBroker seller “Selling Dad’s Old Guns”. This individual’s shenanigans have been covered before on this site – I am just adding a personal anecdote.
Last October, I sold fourteen M70 rifles of various styles to a reputable dealer for what I considered to be a fair price. They were all rifles I had either upgraded or that were “surplus to my needs”, and several of them were rifles my Dad or I had purchased in the 1980s or 1990s. They were all subsequently sold through Guns International, for what I thought was a reasonable dealer mark up over what I was paid.
Imagine my SURPRISE, when several of those same guns started showing up in “Selling Dad’s” inventory, having in the interim acquired boxes, tags, instructions, slings, etc. One example (of several) is M70 .257 Roberts Carbine S/N 40586:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=483063190
The seller was indeed (as another WACA member commented) “Selling MY Dad’s Old Guns”!!! (FYI… I have the receipt from when I sold S/N 40586 so I can “prove” it belonged to me prior to October 2014). What I can say about this individual’s marketing strategy is:
- The rifles (the ones the seller acquired from the dealer I sold them to anyway) are original.
- The condition is overstated compared to the way I grade firearms. If S/N 40586 was really a 98% rifle I would never have bothered to acquire a better .257 Roberts Carbine.
- The paper (box, manuals, tags) and accessories (sling) do not belong to the gun. To be fair to the seller, he carefully avoids stating that the box/accessories are original, but the box does have the serial number written on it, creating the “impression” that this is the original box.
- IMHO the price mark-up is astronomical.
So at this point I am dubious of any Winchester firearm that is advertised as “NIB”.
Anyway, to just scratch the surface of answering your question… Until the early 1950s, Winchester boxes were plain brown corrugated cardboard with white labels on top and one end that had red and blue printing. The end label had the Model, Catalog Symbol, Grade, Chambering, and hand-written Serial Number. About 1953, the boxes acquired the red overprinting “World Famous Winchester Rifles and Shotguns”, the Winchester logo, etc. The labels changed to yellow with red “Winchester” and black printing. Around 1962, the box was redesigned to the overall red and black plaid but retained the yellow label.
But that’s just the start, as much of the printing on the labels, corporate name, business address, etc. changed over time. There are too many variations for me to provide an accurate chronology. There are other WACA members who know far more about Winchester ephemera that I do!!!
Doubt this is much help. Cheers,
Lou Luttrell
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
The way I look at it is “If its for sale its a fake”. I think that covers it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks for the good and informative read. Had to laugh a couple times.
The seller was indeed (as another WACA member commented) “Selling MY Dad’s Old Guns”!!!
Brad
The seller is an outright dishonest crook, and has no morals or qualms about lying. He was originally on this forum as “Taught by Midas” until I banned him. He has changed his name on Gunbroker at least twice due to being called out and identified as a dishonest seller. I urge all of you to exercise caution if you choose to deal with him.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wow, thank you Lou. You not only answered my question but answered what I was trying to figure out.
Bob, I think I have learned (it’s been expensive) what you are saying.
I’ve never owned a bolt action other that a Pre64 M70 (most inherited or bought in the early 80’s). After thousands of rounds and countless time afield I would like to acquire pristine 2nd’s of my favorite calibers. The internet is a great place to find guns but probably the worst place to buy them. In the last 18 months I have bought 3. Of those 3 only one is truly original and has not been “helped”. The 1st .300 WM I purchased has firecracking in the throat that is only visible with a bore scope, it needed a sear to fix a botched trigger job, and the stock looked so perfect because it has been refinished with polyurethane. Why was it for sale, because it didn’t shoot worth a darn. I corrected the poor shooting with a glass bedding job, new sear and lapping the lugs. Basically, I paid $3,200 plus gunsmithing for what is now a “shooter” rifle. Now .300 WM #2 was much better, it came from the original owner who is elderly and he even thru in the brass and reloading dies. Still, I believe the shine on floor plate indicates it has been re blued. Which make me also question the near perfect finish. My point is it is extremely difficult to find high condition, original rifles. If it’s for sale the 1st questions should be why? If it looks to good to be true, it is.
On a good note after joining WACA, reading various posts and getting an answer on a proof marks question, I purchased a rifle that seems to be original and I did not over pay.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I know something about reloading and shooting my Winchesters but very little about buying them without getting ripped off. So thanks for taking the time to answer to my question and provide advise.
Sincerely,
Fielding Turner
It is a mean old world out there. There is so much fakery and doctoring up of rifles going on that personally I am hesitant to buy unless I can hold the gun in my hands or buy from someone I know personally (a collector not a dealer). Forums like this one are a good place to place a WTB ad if you are looking for a high condition rifle. To me a lot less risky than dealing with some internet bandit trying to make a fast buck. In general a collector will know pretty much what it is worth and will use a fellow collector fairly. At least that has been my experience.
November 5, 2014
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Thanks for the kind words, Fielding…
It is truly a sad state of affairs… These days I only look at M70s on GunBroker to try and maintain/improve my “fake spotting” skills. For the most part I feel the same way about Rock Island Auctions, although to be fair I have purchased three M70s from them over the past 3 years that were all demonstrably genuine. Horribly expensive, yes, but “real”…
When it comes to finding M70s, there are two dealers in whom I have a fair degree of confidence solely because I’ve done business with them over a long period of time. I’ve never known either to knowingly sell fakes, and they know that I am not altogether naïve when it comes to M70s. Both also have an absolute “no questions asked” return policy. Other than that I watch auctions for the occasional bona fide M70 collection that is offered for sale. But that is a risky business since you own it as soon as the auctioneer’s hammer drops. If you’re thinking of putting much money at-risk you’re best off attending in person, even if that means spending a grand or more on the trip.
Mike Webb’s suggestion of using the WACA Swap Meet forum as a way to make contacts is a good one. Not that I’d expect a stranger to trust ME, but then again I have a “day job” and lack both the motivation and skill to deceive for profit.
Given that M70s are the only firearms that I seriously collect, I have acquired a fairly large number of them over a span of 35 years or so. But most of the rare variations/chamberings were bought before the turn of the last century and I believe them to be genuine (though I admit I could be wrong).
It’s not that one couldn’t produce a good fake in the 1990s. It’s more that the profit margin wasn’t there in fake M70s. When you could buy a 98-99% condition M70 Standard rifle in an uncommon chambering (e.g. 22 Hornet or 257 Roberts) for $650-$850, the time/expense of getting the refinish just right didn’t justify the return. The main issue in those days (as Vic Van Ballenberghe pointed out in another thread) was swapping genuine parts between guns, for example to turn a Standard rifle in a rare chambering into an even rarer Super Grade in that chambering. If done correctly (no cross-period part swapping) and carefully (making sure ALL the right parts were exchanged) those fakes (“non-factory upgrades”) could be undetectable…
Sadly, with prices they way they are now, there’s evidently a lot of money to be made in fraudulent M70s. Nowadays I wouldn’t buy a Super Grade Featherweight, for example, unless it belonged to a close family friend who bought it new in 1956 and never let it out of his sight. I used to think that they’d be too hard to fake, with the costly rust blue, jeweling, and Monte Carlo Super Grade stock with featherweight barrel channel and no forearm bedding screw. Now, it appears you can buy an exact CNC-machined replica of that stock on the Internet…
All in all I’m not buying many M70s these days…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Also, bear in mind that over the years there has been a strong market for original boxes–I’ve seen Model 70 boxes sell for big bucks. Obviously, guys with high condition rifles wanted the boxes to create “NIB” rifles. So we are not only dealing with fake boxes someone made but also with “NIB” fakes that were created by using original boxes and mis-matched rifles. Of course, the serial numbers on the boxes had to be changed, usually not a problem but sometimes inexpertly done. Also, I’ve seen examples where the box serial number was typed or printed in–to my knowledge, this was never done at the factory where the numbers were always hand written.
The best way to detect a newly made box is to check the end label. I have not seen any fake end labels that exactly matched originals. How do you tell? The only way is to educate yourself by looking at originals and by checking references (like the Model 94 book) that illustrate changes over time. I don’t want to be too specific lest the fakers learn more than they already know.
Just a word about NIB rifles: To me, the only NIB rifle to buy is one where the rifle is as close to new condition as possible, the box is crisp, the tags and papers are present as are the correct spacers and wax paper. And, of course, everything is factory original. Why buy a rifle that has been out of the box and is worn, or the box is ratty and missing internal components? The truth is, many “NIB” rifles fall into the latter category–and are priced as if they were not. Truly NIB factory original rifles are very rare these days. Those that are worn and in ratty, incomplete boxes (or maybe fake boxes) are still pretty common. Buyer beware.
Louis Luttrell said
Sadly, with prices they way they are now, there’s evidently a lot of money to be made in fraudulent M70s. Nowadays I wouldn’t buy a Super Grade Featherweight, for example, unless it belonged to a close family friend who bought it new in 1956 and never let it out of his sight. I used to think that they’d be too hard to fake, with the costly rust blue, jeweling, and Monte Carlo Super Grade stock with featherweight barrel channel and no forearm bedding screw. Now, it appears you can buy an exact CNC-machined replica of that stock on the Internet…
Check out the stock finish and inletting on the reproduction stocks–they differ from factory original stocks. I wonder how many reproduction Super Grade stocks are selling at $1800+ each?
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