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Eagle said
There are a lot of folks out there that will never “get it” with gun conditioning, I don’t care how many they look at. It doesn’t mean their stupid, it just means they don’t have the ability to discern original from refinished. I’ve looked at guns at gun shows and elsewhere with folks like this. Some of these folks had 25 years experience in the business. It’s amazing what they don’t see. Peter
I’ve known the same kind of folks who never wise up, despite repeated opportunities to educate themselves. When you study a subject for 25 yrs, yet never develop the ability to distinguish between original & refinished (the “typical” refinish, let me say, not one of Turnbull quality), I’m not so sure “stupid” isn’t the proper label for such an incapacity to learn. But even the best refinishing job in the world is still a tip-off, because it’s so rare for guns to survive in that condition. Like these so-called “invisible” bore lining jobs, a mirror bore on a century-old gun is itself a red flag, even when you can find no visible evidence of the liner.
Wincacher said
Never said he was stupid. What I specifically said was that he screened in the gun so it would be what he wanted it to be and ignored all the red flags.
That’s it exactly. I’ve seen it many times, they want it to be right. Where was his wing man? T/R
Online
As I think about it, the, “screening in” is very common among people. For example, I’ve seen it over and over as people, “screen in” marital partners. This is despite numerous obvious red flags and plenty of wingmen sounding the warning bell. The fantasy for something to be better than it is can have much pull.
Wincacher…I agree that you never said the buyer was stupid, and I did not mean what I said to be interpreted that way. That was me using that word to make a point. I do agree, like you have said, that buyers get a mindset about how things look, which sometimes is in direct relation to how much they want it, and that they then ignore obvious flags and lack of good pictures and then “wonder where the yellow went” when the gun arrives. Peter
PS: you might not be old enough to understand “wonder where the yellow went”. I came from an old Pepsodent tooth past ad…”you wonder where the yellow went when you brush you teeth with pepsodent!” I know I’m weird….
Eagle said
Wincacher…I agree that you never said the buyer was stupid, and I did not mean what I said to be interpreted that way. That was me using that word to make a point. I do agree, like you have said, that buyers get a mindset about how things look, which sometimes is in direct relation to how much they want it, and that they then ignore obvious flags and lack of good pictures and then “wonder where the yellow went” when the gun arrives. PeterPS: you might not be old enough to understand “wonder where the yellow went”. I came from an old Pepsodent tooth past ad…”you wonder where the yellow went when you brush you teeth with pepsodent!” I know I’m weird….
2) I’m old enough to remember Bucky Beaver and “Brusha, brusha, brusha – get the new Ipana – it’s dandy for your teeth! 
1) Couldn’t agree more about that “mindset”.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
steve004 said
As I think about it, the, “screening in” is very common among people. For example, I’ve seen it over and over as people, “screen in” marital partners. This is despite numerous obvious red flags and plenty of wingmen sounding the warning bell. The fantasy for something to be better than it is can have much pull.
Exactly. Like hiring people to fill vacant positions simply because they are available and not because they are the right fit. Had to learn that decades ago.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Eagle said I know I’m weird….
Weird is alright when reminiscing. Those were good days to be boys.
Wincacher said
Exactly. Like hiring people to fill vacant positions simply because they are available and not because they are the right fit. Had to learn that decades ago.
Let me draw another parallel from my experience when it comes to both hiring people and collecting Winchesters:
There’s less and less right Winchesters out there and there are less and less right people out there. My opinion is, way less, on both counts.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/769661924 Steve, Here is a nice honest first model 73 carbine on Gun Broker by a honest dealer. He’s taken lots of good pictures, 136 to be exact. If everyone did it like this buying would be easy. First model carbines in this condition are rare, worth a look. T/R
TR said
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/769661924 Steve, Here is a nice honest first model 73 carbine on Gun Broker by a honest dealer. He’s taken lots of good pictures, 136 to be exact. If everyone did it like this buying would be easy. First model carbines in this condition are rare, worth a look. T/R
This seller has had a few things of interest to me. Unfortunately he won’t sell C&R to California because “he doesn’t have time to research it.” Unfortunately I depend on online acquisitions for most of the interesting Winchesters I purchase as the pickings are slim here in Los Angeles and my disability keeps me from doing a lot of traveling. I purchase regularly from GB and others using my 03FFL. This seller would probably have a good regular customer in me if he could be bothered.
Steve (different Steve from the OP)
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
TR said
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/769661924 Steve, Here is a nice honest first model 73 carbine on Gun Broker by a honest dealer. He’s taken lots of good pictures, 136 to be exact. If everyone did it like this buying would be easy. First model carbines in this condition are rare, worth a look. T/R
Outstanding example of both the carbine and how to list it. On my watch list.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
That is a very fine first model carbine. I’ll bet it will go high. I’m confused about the C&R FFL issue. I realize some sellers won’t take a C&R license even though the firearm definitely qualifies as a curio and relic. However, this carbine is not a C&R firearm – it’s an antique – and requires no FFL of any type. The seller even states in the description that the carbine requires no FFL. He does require proof of age… perhaps you’re not eligible because you’re not old enough? 😉
By the way, it’s really neat that this carbine has such a nice bore. I like that 
I wish I wasn’t old enough. Trust me, that’s not the issue. I realize this is an antique. I’ve tried to participate on several of his C&R items in the past. I sent him the CA DOJ links, etc. he said he couldn’t be bothered and wouldn’t honor CA 03FFL. He would happily send it to an 01FFL.
FYI around here you pay $100-150 to have an 01FFL receive an out-of-state item. Also you have to pay CA sales tax when you go that route. I might as well buy from Rock Island and pay the premium. And I have, from them and countless other sellers without issue (including some WACA members).
I realize it’s his prerogative who he sells to. If he doesn’t want my business he doesn’t deserve it. Too bad too. He seems like an honest seller with some nice stuff. It’s frustrating is all. I’d leave if I could.
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
I’ve bought, sold, and traded with Craig, he’s always been flexible. He goes to many of the national shows, that’s where I’ve dealt with him. T/R
I know the guy who has this 1st model carbine on gun broker. I’ve sold him over a dozen rare and high condition 76’s in the past couple of years. He’s a young guy, fairly new to the collecting of Winchesters. However, I have never run into anyone in his age group that knows more about Winchesters than he does. The other thing that is VERY refreshing, is the fact that he is honest. He always posts a ton of photos, describes his stuff accurately and sells at quite resonable prices. Looking forward to seeing him in Denver, next week.
TR said
I’ve bought, sold, and traded with Craig, he’s always been flexible. He goes to many of the national shows, that’s where I’ve dealt with him. T/R
Fair enough. Not my experience. In his words he is “too busy to research California laws”. Maybe he was having a bad day. That’s all I’ll say.
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
win4575 said
I know the guy who has this 1st model carbine on gun broker. I’ve sold him over a dozen rare and high condition 76’s in the past couple of years. He’s a young guy, fairly new to the collecting of Winchesters. However, I have never run into anyone in his age group that knows more about Winchesters than he does. The other thing that is VERY refreshing, is the fact that he is honest. He always posts a ton of photos, describes his stuff accurately and sells at quite resonable prices. Looking forward to seeing him in Denver, next week.
I’ve never met the young man in person, but I have spoken with him on the phone and he is most certainly an impressive individual. I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with him and would like very much to have the opportunity to meet him in person, although I doubt I’ll ever have the chance. Thanks for the positive notes you have made about him as my thoughts are similar.
James
supergimp said
I wish I wasn’t old enough. Trust me, that’s not the issue. I realize this is an antique. I’ve tried to participate on several of his C&R items in the past. I sent him the CA DOJ links, etc. he said he couldn’t be bothered and wouldn’t honor CA 03FFL. He would happily send it to an 01FFL.FYI around here you pay $100-150 to have an 01FFL receive an out-of-state item. Also you have to pay CA sales tax when you go that route. I might as well buy from Rock Island and pay the premium. And I have, from them and countless other sellers without issue (including some WACA members).
I realize it’s his prerogative who he sells to. If he doesn’t want my business he doesn’t deserve it. Too bad too. He seems like an honest seller with some nice stuff. It’s frustrating is all. I’d leave if I could.
Steve
Steve –
Sorry but I remain confused. Why is your C&R FFL even a topic in your conversation with him? His ad clearly states that this carbine is an antique and does not require an FFL (of any type). He does not specify he will not ship an antique to California. Again, he makes no mention of anyone needing an FFL to receive it. Perhaps there’s more to the story here. Steve – are you sure you’re not 17? 
I don’t live in California and never have. Does California have a law specifying residents are not allowed to have pre-1899 firearms shipped directly to them? Do antiques in California require at least a C&R FFL? 
As I said before my dealings with him in the past were regarding a C&R purchase. Not this Carbine. C&R is fine in CA. He said he didn’t have time to verify that.
As a potential customer I found his response off-putting. That is all. Sorry I even mentioned it.
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
jwm94 said
I’ve never met the young man in person, but I have spoken with him on the phone and he is most certainly an impressive individual. I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with him and would like very much to have the opportunity to meet him in person, although I doubt I’ll ever have the chance. Thanks for the positive notes you have made about him as my thoughts are similar.
James
Permit me to observe that a “winning” or “impressive” personality has nothing whatever to do with character…as the many suave, highly intelligent, & “well-liked” Wall St. types who’ve gone to jail illustrates. Is he someone with a sincere personal interest in antique guns (which generally begins at an early age–in my case about 12), or just another money-grubbing dealer? The frequency with which the same guns are sold, resold, sold again, etc., continually astounds me–every middleman taking his cut, of course. No wonder Winchester prices are what they are. Is he an NRA Life Member, as I became shortly after I turned 21 (having joined as a Junior at 14), or a Benefactor, which I became in my early 30s, after years of saving up for it? Few of the dealers I’ve known personally were members of any kind. No, a member of the Dealers Admiration Society, I’m definitely not.
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