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Here's someone trying to spread the word on getting ripped off (Winchester M86 .50 EX)
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May 11, 2018 - 3:10 pm
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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/769338546

 

It’s a live gunbroker auction.  However, I don’t think he is actually trying to sell the rifle – at least not very hard given his description.  I know he keeps listing it over and over.  Sounds like he was truly ripped off and probably well into the five figures. Very unfortunate but serves as a cautionary tale to others. 

I see when I click on the auction, the first photo is blank but if you click on the arrow on the right, you can scroll through them.

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May 11, 2018 - 4:22 pm
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I believe he is giving the people who sold it to him some “free advertising”

Best,

Erin

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May 11, 2018 - 4:54 pm
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Unfortunate, and I hate seeing this happen. However – you can clearly see the rifle is re case colored, re-blued, and wood refinished in the photos. Lots of red flags in those photos.

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May 11, 2018 - 5:35 pm
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Austin said
Unfortunate, and I hate seeing this happen. However – you can clearly see the rifle is re case colored, re-blued, and wood refinished in the photos. Lots of red flags in those photos.  

Austin –

I of course agree with you, but I would also contend that there are no red flags if you can’t see them.  That’s what it’s all about – gaining the knowledge and experience to see the flags.  The main reason seller’s are able to sell all these red-flag rifles is because a large percentage of the buyers out there can’t see the flags. 

I know you are familiar with another .50 Express that sold recently.  You kindly performed a community service by contacting the buyer and helping him see the (many) red flags:

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/winchester-1886-50-express-on-auction-dont-understand-the-high-bidding/

I believe the collective knowledge and experience on this forum is providing a tremendous service to advancing the knowledge of beginning and intermediate collectors.  I love to see people not get ripped off Cool

As an aside, as I was writing this I had a memory from around 35 years ago.  At a gunshow, I (ignorantly) purchased a M1886 .45-90 SRC that had two receiver sight tap holes that had been welded shut and finished over.  I had no mentor and this of course was not too far into my life as a collector. I’d spot it in a second now.  I was extremely excited about finding a SRC and excited about the caliber as well.  My excitement faded a lot once I finally figured it out.  This time, the unscrupulous seller won. 

While I’m rambling, let me mention another topic (that was a major factor in the experience I just related):  gun show light!  Watch out for it because it usually isn’t your friend.  In fact, here’s another piece of advice.  If you buy something at a show, just as a double-check process, once you get outside the show door with it, if you can, look it over in the natural light.  Believe it or not, years later I purchased another Winchester at a gunshow and did look the receiver over and didn’t see any holes.  I got it outside, looked at it and darned if I didn’t see the shadow of two tap holes.  I immediately went back inside and confronted the seller.  He acted all surprised but my gut really told me he knew Yell

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May 11, 2018 - 5:57 pm
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Erin Grivicich said
I believe he is giving the people who sold it to him some “free advertising”

Best,

Erin  

Absolutely he is, & BRAVO for him!  Exposing a crook in this way should be viewed as a “public service announcement.”  Telling your own friends to look out for so & so does the crook little harm, but hopefully this ad will put a crimp in his business.  In fact, if this auction house was not totally crooked, they’d have taken the gun back, & suffered the loss themselves rather than tolerate being publically shamed this way. 

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May 11, 2018 - 6:02 pm
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steve004 said

 While I’m rambling, let me mention another topic (that was a major factor in the experience I just related):  gun show light!  Watch out for it because it usually isn’t your friend.  In fact, here’s another piece of advice.  If you buy something at a show, just as a double-check process, once you get outside the show door with it, if you can, look it over in the natural light.  Believe it or not, years later I purchased another Winchester at a gunshow and did look the receiver over and didn’t see any holes.  I got it outside, looked at it and darned if I didn’t see the shadow of two tap holes.  I immediately went back inside and confronted the seller.  He acted all surprised but my gut really told me he knew Yell  

Exactly the same thing happened to me–2 filled holes for a rcvr. sight in a ’92 that looked near mint. Except, I didn’t make the “daylight test” until long after I’d taken it home!

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May 11, 2018 - 7:25 pm
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Gun show light is nothing short of absolutely terrible.  Natural lighting works best!

Not trying to defend the seller, but what sort of auction was this?  If it was internet only with poor photographs, he deserves to be exposed.  But if it was a brick and mortar auction house with merchandise available for preview, then the buyer really has no basis for retaliation as when you bid in these sorts of auctions, your bid means you bought it, regardless of condition or description.  Some MAJOR national firearms auction houses are extremely guilty of this, and get away with it repeatedly.  Their “experts” are often nothing more than good writers with usually, but not always an average working knowledge of firearms.

If you cannot see a firearm in person, bid most conservatively or don’t bid at all!  It absolutely amazes me the popularity of Gunbroker given the fact that most, if not all, items on Gunbroker are not available for evaluation until after the sale.  It helps to buy from a reputable seller on Gunbroker, but many of these “reputations” are falsified.

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May 11, 2018 - 8:26 pm
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Reminds me when i got “taken” at a local gun show…..I had 76 carbine with a set trigger, that lettered…..of course i didn’t know exactly what i had as i just started in the winchester world.  Lets just say i’m pretty sure the dealer knew what he was doing when he traded me a re-blued model 53 (lyman 21 and what i thought was original blue is what got me) and 1k……

I guess you live and learn.

If that guy is out there…..I hope you are happy with yourself!

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May 11, 2018 - 8:31 pm
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With regard to the original gunbroker auction we started with, from reading the seller’s description he mentioned he purchased it through Proxibid.  So he would have purchased it sight unseen.  However, he references two phone conversations where he talked to the owner of the auction house and on both occasions he was told the rifle was original and unaltered. Given this outfit claims to specialize in firearms (since 1978) you’d think they’d have noted the flags on this one. 

While we are on the topic of internet auctions, I note that many (e.g. gunbroker sellers) specify their items are not returnable.  No inspection period.  And, I see many of these sellers are quite successful – some with over 10,000 pieces of feedback.  No inspection period… a bit scary?  I am not necessarily deterred by this.  It depends on the cost of the item and whether it is more of a shooter than collector piece.  Also, if there are a very large number of high quality photos taken from every possible angle, I will feel better too.  I note many sellers do a great job of posting quality photos.  On the other hand, there are sellers who  post grainy or blurry photos.  Certain features or angles are omitted.  So in that scenario combined with no inspection period…  Frown

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May 11, 2018 - 8:35 pm
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Manuel said
Reminds me when i got “taken” at a local gun show…..I had 76 carbine with a set trigger, that lettered…..of course i didn’t know exactly what i had as i just started in the winchester world.  Lets just say i’m pretty sure the dealer knew what he was doing when he traded me a re-blued model 53 (lyman 21 and what i thought was original blue is what got me) and 1k……

I guess you live and learn.

If that guy is out there…..I hope you are happy with yourself!  

Sadly, I strongly suspect he was extremely happy with himself Yell

One can hope that karma caught up with him.

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May 11, 2018 - 11:29 pm
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While I certainly commiserate with GRAZIER A+(784) and appreciate his attempt at exposing proxibid in this matter, I can’t help but wonder about a number of red flags:

1)  With a feedback of 784 I think the buyer has plenty experience and is not a novice that was hoodwinked.

2)  Only 7 photos (2 of which are near useless and 1 which is duplicated) for a gun that commanded $21,000 plus $ 4,200 buyer’s premium?  I often see high $ internet items with few and/or fuzzy photos.  I just skim over those items and move on.

3)  The barrel shows several unintelligible stampings (to me) that remind me of Italian proof marks.

4)  No photo of the Cody Paperwork.

5)  No close-ups of any of the special features mentioned in the text.

6)  No explanation of the strange inlay that is pictured twice.

7)  “They forgot to load all the pictures” and he let it go or didn’t insist on seeing the missing ones?

8)  He took their word over the phone that is was original without asking for it in writing.

To me this is a classic example of a buyer “screening in”, rather than screening out discrepancies, making the gun out to be what he wanted it to be.  While he certainly never deserved to be “taken”, he surely overlooked all the rules of caveat emptor and paid the consequences.

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May 12, 2018 - 12:04 am
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Wincacher said
While I certainly commiserate with GRAZIER A+(784) and appreciate his attempt at exposing proxibid in this matter, I can’t help but wonder about a number of red flags:

1)  With a feedback of 784 I think the buyer has plenty experience and is not a novice that was hoodwinked.

2)  Only 7 photos (2 of which are near useless and 1 which is duplicated) for a gun that commanded $21,000 plus $ 4,200 buyer’s premium?  I often see high $ internet items with few and/or fuzzy photos.  I just skim over those items and move on.

3)  The barrel shows several unintelligible stampings (to me) that remind me of Italian proof marks.

4)  No photo of the Cody Paperwork.

5)  No close-ups of any of the special features mentioned in the text.

6)  No explanation of the strange inlay that is pictured twice.

7)  “They forgot to load all the pictures” and he let it go or didn’t insist on seeing the missing ones?

8)  He took their word over the phone that is was original without asking for it in writing.

To me this is a classic example of a buyer “screening in”, rather than screening out discrepancies, making the gun out to be what he wanted it to be.  While he certainly never deserved to be “taken”, he surely overlooked all the rules of caveat emptor and paid the consequences.  

Excellent points.  I think if one is collecting and doesn’t want to get ripped off, a key is to take responsibility for your part in the purchase (which is a very big part).  If you don’t perform due diligence for your purchase, no one else is going to do it for you.  Let me make a suggestion.  This is something I have not always done.  Much of the time it didn’t matter but sometimes I really wished I had.  It’s fairly simple and quick.  I suggest always touching upon exactly what will happen if things do not go as nicely both parties expect it will.  For example, what are the circumstances and details of how a return will be made?   Wincacher’s point #6 suggests getting the assurance of the claim of originality in writing.  I agree with this idea.  Short of that, I think it would may have been helpful during the conversation where originality had been assured, to have simply asked, “ok, but let’s talk about what happens if it turns out to not be original?  Will you simply take my word, do I need an expert evaluation, will I get a full refund without any hassle?  Having a brief conversation (which ends in mutual agreement) about these details before the rifle is received can make a difference.  And if bringing these points up doesn’t go well, that can be another clue. 

I was also glad Wincacher made the point about, “screening in.”  It’s easy to do.  As I write this, I have another memory.  This was probably 20 to 25 years ago.  It’s actually an example of a dealer being particularly honorable.  It was regarding a rare rifle, but with no documentation of a very rare aspect of it (not a Winchester so I’ll forego the details).  The dealer was not making any claims he couldn’t back up.  Anyway, as we discussed the rifle (over the phone) I was getting more enthused and basically, as Wincacher suggests, starting to screen it in.  The dealer stopped me and commented, “you’re talking yourself into it.”  Embarassed Yup, not all the dealer’s out there are villains.  Oh, and I did not buy it.

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May 12, 2018 - 2:04 am
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steve004 said 

Wincacher’s point #6 suggests getting the assurance of the claim of originality in writing. 

Can you name a single auction house that would do this? 

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May 12, 2018 - 2:07 am
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clarence said

steve004 said 

Wincacher’s point #6 suggests getting the assurance of the claim of originality in writing. 

Can you name a single auction house that would do this?   

I cannot name one. However, if you are speaking directly to the owner of the auction house, and he assures you directly that the rifle is all original, I think it would be appropriate to inquire if he would put that statement in writing.

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May 12, 2018 - 2:48 am
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steve004 said

 

 However, if you are speaking directly to the owner of the auction house, and he assures you directly that the rifle is all original, I think it would be appropriate to inquire if he would put that statement in writing.  

Appropriate but entirely unrealistic.  Might get a “to the best of our knowledge” kind of equivocation, but something more definitive I greatly doubt.  Even if the folks involved are scrupulously honest (and would that be a novelty in the auction business!), they’re not experts at anything but selling.

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May 12, 2018 - 2:51 am
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clarence said

steve004 said 

Wincacher’s point #6 suggests getting the assurance of the claim of originality in writing. 

Can you name a single auction house that would do this?   

I cannot named a single place that would do this and that is why I won’t buy anything from any one of them.

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May 12, 2018 - 2:02 pm
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I wouldn’t say I would never buy from a big auction house but it would not be prudent to do so unless you can be onsite and examine it.  Wincacher – I assume you would not have an issue if your were able to hold the rifle in your hands before bidding?  Of course, there are other reasons I would be unlikely to buy such as the large fees the auction houses add on.

What gets me is the large amount of bidding that occurs from those not physically present and who have not been able to examine the piece in the flesh.  Yes, this occurs with gunbroker, etc. but oftentimes there are over 100 clear photos and a detailed description.

Here is an example of what a large auction house provides:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1031/2005/winchester-1886-rifle-4590-wcf

Ok, an interesting rifle.  But there’s not even a description.  Rather, just a rating system that provides an array of descriptions that may or may not be present:

Here is the category rating for this rifle:

OE – GOOD: some minor replacement parts; metal smoothly rusted or lightly pitted in places, cleaned; lightly scratched, bruised or minor cracks repaired; in good working order.

Oh, and you have two photos to work with.

If you enjoy a big gamble, then these type auctions are just the ticket.  And from what I surmise, there’s no shortage of people who like to gamble. 

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May 12, 2018 - 3:03 pm
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Austin said
Unfortunate, and I hate seeing this happen. However – you can clearly see the rifle is re case colored, re-blued, and wood refinished in the photos. Lots of red flags in those photos.  

I absolutely agree with this statement. Also I disagree with saying that the buyer had 784 feedback on GB so he should have known better. There are a lot of folks out there that will never “get it” with gun conditioning, I don’t care how many they look at. It doesn’t mean their stupid, it just means they don’t have the ability to discern original from refinished. I’ve looked at guns at gun shows and elsewhere with folks like this. Some of these folks had 25 years experience in the business. It’s amazing what they don’t see. Peter

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May 12, 2018 - 3:51 pm
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Eagle said

I absolutely agree with this statement. Also I disagree with saying that the buyer had 784 feedback on GB so he should have known better. There are a lot of folks out there that will never “get it” with gun conditioning, I don’t care how many they look at. It doesn’t mean their stupid, it just means they don’t have the ability to discern original from refinished. I’ve looked at guns at gun shows and elsewhere with folks like this. Some of these folks had 25 years experience in the business. It’s amazing what they don’t see. Peter  

Peter – I have also seen this as well.  Over and over again. 

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May 12, 2018 - 5:07 pm
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Eagle said

Also I disagree with saying that the buyer had 784 feedback on GB so he should have known better. There are a lot of folks out there that will never “get it” with gun conditioning, I don’t care how many they look at. It doesn’t mean their stupid,

Never said he was stupid.  What I specifically said was that he screened in the gun so it would be what he wanted it to be and ignored all the red flags.

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