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Hi All,
I’m looking at a Winchester Model 1895 (1899 DOM) that the seller claims are “scratches” running horizontally on the left side of the receiver. I asked him to send me some close-up photos of both sides of the receiver and here’s what he sent. To me, they look like forging marks/striations and not actually scratches as he describes. I can live with forging marks/striations; they don’t bother me much and actually prove the finish’s originality. However, “scratches” of this magnitude would bother me to some degree. Reading Kassab and Dunbar’s 1895 book, forging marks/striations are fairly common on the receivers of earlier Winchesters, and this one dates back to 1899. I’m leaning towards forging marks/striations, but wanted to get some opinions from all you experts out there.
Don
Leaning towards a little of both. To me, the right side looks like scratches in the finish, the left side, the more obvious marks, look to me like forging marks, but there also appear to be some scratches in the finish as well.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Thanks Chris. The main ones I wanted to draw attention to are on the high point of the left side of the receiver near the patent markings.
I’m with the little of both group, but I reckon that main you you asked about is a scratch.
I don’t remember seeing forging striations being so wavy (left side) but someone can comment on that hopefully. I think right side is definitely cleaning scratches.
Forging marks on the 73’s are quite wavy. I would say you have both.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I’d say majority of what you have is forging marks, especially the longer marks. If those were in fact scratches the lettering on the receiver would be disfigured and not still nice and crisp.
Some of those smaller marks, I’d lean to be more like scratches.
Overall a nice high condition beautiful model 95.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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Thanks everyone for your assessments. Looks to be mixed bag of forging marks and a few scratches. To Maverick’s point, the lettering on the receiver is still nice and crisp so leaning towards forging marks for the most distinct lines. Also, if those largest lines were scratches, you would think they would have extended to the wood, which they do not. I may be purchasing this model 1895 in the very near future, just waiting to gather funds. I’ll provide an update after an in-hand inspection.
Don
I’d buy it with the said forging marks, a good indicator towards its original condition.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone do a re-blue job and recreate forging marks. How could they do such a thing? Or why?
Most restorer wouldn’t want imperfections in their work.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Forging lines will show up in refinished guns for the same reason they show up on original guns. It just takes time. Here is a restored 73 from Roger’s that is getting forging lines.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
Yes, but at the time of its restoration Roger’s was not intending or trying have the forging marks show up. How old of a restoration is on that 73?
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick,
When I first got it in 2002 and the gun didn’t show any lines but now its starting to. I don’t know how long before that it was done by Rogers. I bought it at a local show were a guy brought it in. I looked at it and recognized the work to be Roger’s and told him so. He was emphatic that it wasn’t redone and its been in his gun safe for 20 years so it couldn’t of been restored. I offered him $3500 which at the time is what Roger’s was charging for a plain wood restore. He walked it around the room and came back to me and I bought it since it was a nice example of Roger’s work. I told him I’m buying it because its one of his restores and he still denied its was restored. I told him if he waits I’ll pull the stock and show him Roger’s mark. He left as soon as he got the money and it did have his mark.
Chuck, when did Rogers start doing restores?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Maverick,When I first got it in 2002 and the gun didn’t show any lines but now its starting to. I don’t know how long before that it was done by Rogers. I bought it at a local show were a guy brought it in. I looked at it and recognized the work to be Roger’s and told him so. He was emphatic that it wasn’t redone and its been in his gun safe for 20 years so it couldn’t of been restored. I offered him $3500 which at the time is what Roger’s was charging for a plain wood restore. He walked it around the room and came back to me and I bought it since it was a nice example of Roger’s work. I told him I’m buying it because its one of his restores and he still denied its was restored. I told him if he waits I’ll pull the stock and show him Roger’s mark. He left as soon as he got the money and it did have his mark.
Chuck, when did Rogers start doing restores?
Bob
Bob,
I first met Roger in the Fall of 2002, and he was very well established at that time (I suspect at least 25-years in business). I spent many a Friday afternoon visiting with him in his shop (in Placentia, CA) from the Fall of 2002 through the Fall of 2004. His restoration work was absolutely top-notch. I vividly remember spending several hours at his shop watching him manufacture (10) brand new Henry rifle barrels. On several occasions we discussed the topic of dealers trying to pass his work off as “factory original” and why he decided to surreptitiously mark all of his work. He explained and showed me where & how he marked his work.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
Roger would not mark guns if it was not a complete restore like a new barrel or wood and he would not mark a complete restore if you asked.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Maverick,When I first got it in 2002 and the gun didn’t show any lines but now its starting to. I don’t know how long before that it was done by Rogers. I bought it at a local show were a guy brought it in. I looked at it and recognized the work to be Roger’s and told him so. He was emphatic that it wasn’t redone and its been in his gun safe for 20 years so it couldn’t of been restored. I offered him $3500 which at the time is what Roger’s was charging for a plain wood restore. He walked it around the room and came back to me and I bought it since it was a nice example of Roger’s work. I told him I’m buying it because its one of his restores and he still denied its was restored. I told him if he waits I’ll pull the stock and show him Roger’s mark. He left as soon as he got the money and it did have his mark.
Chuck, when did Rogers start doing restores?
Bob
I don’t know. I started going over there in the late 1980’s with Walt.
On the left side, bottom of the receiver – is that not lines also? If they were “scratches” I think it’d be pretty hard to scratch both the side and the bottom.
Dan
This Winchester 1895 is an excellent example of forge marks. When I see parallel lines that curve and look like this, I immediately think forge marks. Not to say there aren’t some scratches since then. If in doubt, look at the “scratches’ under a high power magnifying glass. They will appear different if forge marks vs scratches.
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