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Bert H. said
If you do not have a copy of Harold’s fine book, I highly recommend buying a copy. At one time I had three copies of it, but I gave two of them away.Fortunately, the price tag for a copy is still very reasonable – Winchester the Gun That Won the West: Harold F Williamson: 9780498083150: Amazon.com: Books
Bert
p.s. If needed, I can still dig through the tome to find the information you are seeing, but it is a rather large book.
Thanks. I just ordered it. A couple weeks for delivery though. Turtle Express Delivery.
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Bert H. said
If you do not have a copy of Harold’s fine book, I highly recommend buying a copy. At one time I had three copies of it, but I gave two of them away.
Fortunately, the price tag for a copy is still very reasonable – Winchester the Gun That Won the West: Harold F Williamson: 9780498083150: Amazon.com: Books
Bert
p.s. If needed, I can still dig through the tome to find the information you are seeing, but it is a rather large book.
Thanks. I just ordered it. A couple weeks for delivery though. Turtle Express Delivery.
I suspect that you will greatly appreciate that research and information that Professor H. Williamson complied in the subject book. Many readers find it a bit dry, but I was highly fascinated by all of the company details that he discussed in the book.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
twobit said
Bert H. said
If you do not have a copy of Harold’s fine book, I highly recommend buying a copy. At one time I had three copies of it, but I gave two of them away.
Fortunately, the price tag for a copy is still very reasonable – Winchester the Gun That Won the West: Harold F Williamson: 9780498083150: Amazon.com: Books
Bert
p.s. If needed, I can still dig through the tome to find the information you are seeing, but it is a rather large book.
Thanks. I just ordered it. A couple weeks for delivery though. Turtle Express Delivery.
A lot of libraries will have a copy of Williamson’s book. Including the ones online. Nothing wrong with having a hard copy though.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015004485176&seq=11
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Thanks for the PDF link, I was able to download the whole book through my school relationship. I like to feed those PDFs to tools like NotebookLM (google) or ChatGPT and they’ll pull out summaries or find info for you at lightning speed…very cool. I literally just finished the hard book (thanks Mike!) and Bert, you’re right, he spared no attention to the business dealings, much of which was fascinating!
Here are a couple examples we had years ago that are WRACo stamped, both 38-55’s.
Rifle
Carbine
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
So based on George’s letter, at least his theory was that Sears or the like company defaced / obliterated the serial numbers. As seen like on the Model 1887 I posted. Then when ever a such a gun with defaced serial was returned to the factory for repair. The factory would then apply such WRACO markings.
Interesting theory and letter from Madis.
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Maverick said
So based on George’s letter, at least his theory was that Sears or the like company defaced / obliterated the serial numbers. As seen like on the Model 1887 I posted. Then when ever a such a gun with defaced serial was returned to the factory for repair. The factory would then apply such WRACO markings.Interesting theory and letter from Madis.
While that theory is remotely possible, I seriously doubt that Winchester’s employees would have been that sloppy with the application of the “WRACO” markings. Further, there are no known factory notices, memos, or any other documentation that supports or mentions remarking obliterated serial numbers with that marking. I personally am nearly 100% certain that it was perpetrated by Sears or by the straw buyers that sold the guns to Sears.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I think Bert is correct. Sears, or their supplier, did this so no one could track the original supplier.
Chuck said
I think Bert is correct. Sears, or their supplier, did this so no one could track the original supplier.
But the point of the discussion is that there is no proof to the contrary and vice versa. No documentation that Winchester did this practice. No documentation that Sears or their supplier did this practice.
That said, being such a nefarious activity or purpose, I doubt Sears or the like would have documented such a practice. I’m inclined to believe that what is stated in Williamson’s book to be the scenario that is most likely true.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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I doubt that Sears was doing the marking but if a third party was acquiring guns for Sears then it seems quite possible that the acquiring party might have been behind it.
But, then Sears would have been shipping the defaced guns to customers. That seems unlikely to me.
sb said
I doubt that Sears was doing the marking but if a third party was acquiring guns for Sears then it seems quite possible that the acquiring party might have been behind it.But, then Sears would have been shipping the defaced guns to customers. That seems unlikely to me.
I doubt that Sears actually shipped many of the guns that they sold. Most of them were most likely local sales out of the Chicago store front. The customers buying the guns most likely could care less about the WRACO marking, as they were buying the gun for substantially less $$ than what it would have cost them to but the same gun elsewhere.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
sb said
I doubt that Sears was doing the marking but if a third party was acquiring guns for Sears then it seems quite possible that the acquiring party might have been behind it.
But, then Sears would have been shipping the defaced guns to customers. That seems unlikely to me.
I doubt that Sears actually shipped many of the guns that they sold. Most of them were most likely local sales out of the Chicago store front. The customers buying the guns most likely could care less about the WRACO marking, as they were buying the gun for substantially less $$ than what it would have cost them to but the same gun elsewhere.
Bert
I don’t know about the quantity shipped as the Sears catalog sales were enormous and many rural areas prcatically lived out of the catalog. Good point about the pricing. Thinking about it, I doubt a customer would care especially if they were saving a substantial amount. In fact, most probably didn’t notice or just assumed it was a Winchester mark.
Maverick said
Chuck said
I think Bert is correct. Sears, or their supplier, did this so no one could track the original supplier.
But the point of the discussion is that there is no proof to the contrary and vice versa. No documentation that Winchester did this practice. No documentation that Sears or their supplier did this practice.
That said, being such a nefarious activity or purpose, I doubt Sears or the like would have documented such a practice. I’m inclined to believe that what is stated in Williamson’s book to be the scenario that is most likely true.
Sincerely,
Maverick
I can’t argue the point. I don’t know who did the defacing or when. I have to read Williamson’s account. I believe that Madis said something about this. I’ll try to find this too. Does someone have a copy of the Madis letter?
I just read Williamson’s account. Very well detailed. So there is no written proof but he says the guns were defaced by the Suppliers for Sears to hide the sources. It is my opinion Winchester through their tough practices brought this upon themselves. In fact Williamson goes on to show the changes in the laws prohibiting some of Winchester’s practices. If Winchester didn’t get their way they would buy them out. A practice that was going on for years.
Now finding what Madis wrote.
sb said
Bert H. said
sb said
I doubt that Sears was doing the marking but if a third party was acquiring guns for Sears then it seems quite possible that the acquiring party might have been behind it.
But, then Sears would have been shipping the defaced guns to customers. That seems unlikely to me.
I doubt that Sears actually shipped many of the guns that they sold. Most of them were most likely local sales out of the Chicago store front. The customers buying the guns most likely could care less about the WRACO marking, as they were buying the gun for substantially less $$ than what it would have cost them to but the same gun elsewhere.
Bert
I don’t know about the quantity shipped as the Sears catalog sales were enormous and many rural areas prcatically lived out of the catalog. Good point about the pricing. Thinking about it, I doubt a customer would care especially if they were saving a substantial amount. In fact, most probably didn’t notice or just assumed it was a Winchester mark.
In the late 1890s, Sears & Roebuck were not yet a “catalog” business per se. Based on the limited information I have found, they opened their business and store in 1892, and in 1906 they began their mail order business.
Sears, Roebuck and Co., commonly known as Sears (/sɪərz/ SEERZ),[6] is an American chain of department stores founded in 1892 by Richard Warren Sears and Alvah Curtis Roebuck and reincorporated in 1906 by Richard Sears and Julius Rosenwald, with what began as a mail-order catalog company migrating to opening retail locations in 1925, the first in Chicago.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
By 1894, the Sears catalog had grown to 322 pages, including many new items, such as sewing machines, bicycles, sporting goods and automobiles (later produced, from 1905 to 1915, by Lincoln Motor Car Works of Chicago [no relation to the current Ford line]).[19] By 1895, the company was producing a 532-page catalog. Sales were over $400,000 ($12 million in 2021 dollars) in 1893 and over $750,000 ($20 million in 2021 dollars) two years later.[20] By 1896, dolls, stoves, and groceries were added to the catalog
sb said
By 1894, the Sears catalog had grown to 322 pages, including many new items, such as sewing machines, bicycles, sporting goods and automobiles (later produced, from 1905 to 1915, by Lincoln Motor Car Works of Chicago [no relation to the current Ford line]).[19] By 1895, the company was producing a 532-page catalog. Sales were over $400,000 ($12 million in 2021 dollars) in 1893 and over $750,000 ($20 million in 2021 dollars) two years later.[20] By 1896, dolls, stoves, and groceries were added to the catalog
Thanks for the added information!
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
sb said
By 1894, the Sears catalog had grown to 322 pages, including many new items, such as sewing machines, bicycles, sporting goods and automobiles (later produced, from 1905 to 1915, by Lincoln Motor Car Works of Chicago [no relation to the current Ford line]).[19] By 1895, the company was producing a 532-page catalog. Sales were over $400,000 ($12 million in 2021 dollars) in 1893 and over $750,000 ($20 million in 2021 dollars) two years later.[20] By 1896, dolls, stoves, and groceries were added to the catalog
Here is a link to the 1902 catalog from which I posted the advertisement for the Winchester rifles in the initial post of this thread. If you look in the upper corners of the pages the Winchesters on on pages 301 and 302. There are at least 938 pages in the catalog with pretty much anything that you could ever want/need.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
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