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deerhunter said
Thanks Al. I had to put up a fight for it in the end and paid a little more than I hoped, but where am I going to find another and in that condition? However when I contacted the seller after the auction, he was actually a bit dissappointed that it didn’t go for more, since he had nearly $5,200.00 (with buyer’s premium) into it when he bought it over a year ago from Amoskeag Auctions.
You did good. I have sn#1082914 that I bought from Rick Hill a few years back, which is also in Bert’s SFPD survey.
Al
Yeah, Rick sold off some very nice carbines. I got a nice one from him too. Big Larry
dane62 said
hi, is there blue in the S.F.P.D. stamping?
dane62,
Look at the picture of the SFPD marking on post 10.
Al
On mine, there is a mixture of blue and bare metal in the S.F.P.D. stamping–consistent with a stamping that was applied after the blueing process.
Don
thanks. these carbines bring quite a premium, being marked from san francisco p.d. do they all come from the mid 1930’s?
dane62 said
thanks. these carbines bring quite a premium, being marked from san francisco p.d. do they all come from the mid 1930’s?
That would be my guess–mine was made in 1931. I haven’t been able to dig up much information about them. All I’ve heard was that 80 of these were sold by the Davis Company (a police supply company) back in 1983 for a measely $75.00 to $100.00 each to dealers/collectors. The attached link shows one of the original bills of sale from 11/28/83. However, the one in this link was likely a confiscated 1894 SRC that was added to their inventory and not one of the 80 “Eastern carbines” originally purchased by the San Francisco Police Department. These guns don’t have the value of the original 80 Eastern carbines.
There’s one coming up for auction at Rock Island Auction. SN#1082599. Not sure if it’s one of the original 80 or not.
dane62 said
thanks. these carbines bring quite a premium, being marked from san francisco p.d. do they all come from the mid 1930’s?
They may have come through in batches. The ones I bought at Bill Davis’ shop in Sacramento were mostly much later, and all were in real nice condition. I saw some SRCs set off to the side, already spoken for. Davis Co. was a police supplier and took trade ins from police departments. They always had a large selection of police used weapons, that was an era of police upgrading their weaponry. At that time police marked weapons sold for substantially less than regular used guns of the same type. I spent a lot of time there, and remember guys looking at those SFPD marked carbines and commenting about the ugly stamping. There was much talk about how to remove the marking and make the guns more aesthetically pleasing. Times change.
August 11, 2015
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All,
I would really appreciate some feedback on the discussed gun at the gun broker website. I am a novice at this but have recently started to look very closely at the originality of guns I am considering for purchase. One area where I struggle is in the finish (blueing) and whether or not it is original.
I have taken to heart the recommendations of many on this forum and would ask only for some feedback on a couple of questions.
1) the muzzle looks like it has some blue on it. I have been trying to follow the rule about if the muzzle is not white it has been reblued. please comment if possible.
2) the difference in appearance of the Winchester proof stamp from the receiver to the barrel. it appears to me that the receiver stamp broke thru the blue but the barrel stamp did not. please comment.
3) it looks to me like the SFPD stamp did not break thru the blue. not sure if it is expected to or not; would assume that the SFPD stamped these guns by hand so the amount of penetration probably was marginal and often quite inconsistent. please comment.
4) the blue of the gun looks very dark. my experience with any older gun is that the blue tends to fade a bit and looks more light blue than dark blue. please comment
My intent here is not to disparage the gun in question but to get a discussion going for my edification regarding original gun condition and the appearance factor when looking at the blueing of the gun.
Thanks in advance for any expertise that you all might be able to pass on.
Regards,
Mark,
I am going to address your questions in the order you have them posted;
1. Only the “Rifle” variations of the various models have flat (uncrowned) muzzles, and in the white. Carbine always had a crowned and blued muzzle.
2. The Proof mark stamp on the frame ring did not “break through” the bluing. Instead, it cause it to flake off. During the time period when the SFPD marked Carbines were made (1931), Winchester’s machine bluing used on the receivers would not adhere to the steel alloy used for the receiver frames. It flaked badly without any external causes. The bluing used on the barrel was a different formula, and it did not flake.
3. For the same reason as in comment 2 above, the “S.F.P.D.” stamp did not disturb the bluing other than to change its hue (as the steel immediately around the stamped characters was compressed).
4. Older Winchesters were rust blued on the barrels, which has a lighter hue, and it faded or thinned differently than the later production guns like the gun in question. The later production bluing formulas did create a “darker” looking color.
What you need to keep in mind, is that Winchester’s finishing methods evolved and changed frequently over the many years of production. Additionally, the steel alloys changed, which also affected the bluing appearance for the bluing type in use at the time.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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