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Hello,
I’m new here and would like to know if Winchester ever had factory-installed Lyman rear sights on their pre-64 std M70’s? I saw one (ca. 1948 SN1122xx in 30-06) with an old Lyman rear sight on it of almost the same vintage.
Thank you.
Kit
The short answer is yes. I assume you are referring to the receiver mounted rear sight and not the rear sight located in dovetail on barrel? Winchester offered both the Lyman 57W and 48 WJS on the sporting versions, and the 48WH on the Target and Bull Gun models. These were located on LH side of receiver in factory holes.
Steve
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi kit-
Prior to 1947, the Lyman 48WJS was of the “full block” base variety that required a rectangular cut out in the stock. The Lyman 48WJS option was still cataloged from 1947-1949, but these had the bases that did not require a cut out in the stock. Hence, a ’48 rifle with a Lyman 48WJS and no cut out in the stock could very well be factory original (or at least correct)…
Insofar as I know, all these factory-installed receiver sights had “target knobs”. Correct me if I’m wrong, Steve… I think that the coin slotted “hunter knobs” on Lyman 48 sights did not arrive until the early ’50s. So, if factory, a pre-’47 gun with a Lyman 48WJS would have the stock cut-out and target knobs, a ’47-’49 gun with a Lyman 48WJS would have no cut-out (beyond a small “dimple” for the elevation staff that still protruded a bit below the base and maybe a horizontal mark where the coved base dug into the stock wood) and target knobs, and a post ’49 gun with a Lyman 48WJS was either ordered that way or (more likely) had the sight added by the owner. Note that I’m not talking target models here… That’s a whole other topic…
If you can post a photo, or send to me to post ([email protected]), we can probably give you an answer about factory correct or not…
Best, Lou 
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
That it is factory installed.seewin said
The short answer is yes. I assume you are referring to the receiver mounted rear sight and not the rear sight located in dovetail on barrel? Winchester offered both the Lyman 57W and 48 WJS on the sporting versions, and the 48WH on the Target and Bull Gun models. These were located on LH side of receiver in factory holes.Steve
Yes Steve, I’m referring to the receiver–mounted rear sight and not the leaves mounted on the dovetail on the barrel. I am glad to hear that it is factory installed. Given that it’s a 1948 gun and assuming it still is the original Lyman, it should then be the 48 WJS? Thank you Steve for repying.
Louis Luttrell said
Hi kit-Prior to 1947, the Lyman 48WJS was of the “full block” base variety that required a rectangular cut out in the stock. The Lyman 48WJS option was still cataloged from 1947-1949, but these had the bases that did not require a cut out in the stock. Hence, a ’48 rifle with a Lyman 48WJS and no cut out in the stock could very well be factory original (or at least correct)…
If you can post a photo, or send to me to post ([email protected]), we can probably give you an answer about factory correct or not…
Best, Lou
Hi Lou,
I’m hoping that what I’ll see when I examine it next week, is what you describe here – no cut-out on the stock. The hole through which we look into, does not have an ‘aperture’(?) which is like a knurled coin with a hole in the middle that threads into the peep hole. I looked for examples of 48WJS’s on the web realized that that part could be missing. I suppose I’ll have to select the diameter of the peep hole when choising the replacement. Selecting the hole diameter could be a challenge.
Btw, I decided to purchase the rifle and could post photos mid next week.
Thank you Lou for all this info and for replying.
Yes, it should be a 48 WJS or possibly a 57W. The 57’s were not popular, so chances are it is the WJS. When you examine rifle, look for tell tale signs of a barrel mounted sight in rear dovetail. I always look for a worn area where the elevator slides back and forth on barrel as well as indications that the original rear sight has been removed. These usually take the form of punch/hammer marks on side of barrel from a misguided punch that slipped off the sight and hit barrel when original is removed or when a filler blank was installed in its place. Winchester had their own sight filler blanks and they were unmarked. If the blank has a manufacturer’s name on it, it is a replacement and most likely indicates the rifle originally had a 22G rear sight and was replaced with the 48. This was very common.
Even if the 48 sight is not original to gun I would not let that be a deal killer unless stock has been modified for the sight attachment. The original 22G sights are pretty common and could easily be replaced as long as dovetail and has not been damaged.
Steve
Steve,
Now I can’t wait to get my hands on it again so I can check on all these things. Will definitely post photos.
Thank you.
Kit
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Kit-
I look forward to seeing a photo of the rifle.
FWIW… I believe that the default sight disc that came with the Lyman 48WJS was 0.625″ diameter with a 0.040″ aperture. Of course many other diameters and aperture sizes were available to adapt to different shooting conditions. Sometimes the aperture was removed entirely to get a “ghost ring” effect for snap shooting at moving targets. So you have a lot of choices.
Besides looking for “elevator tracks” that would identify the rifle as originally having a Win 22G sight on the barrel, I believe that the photos below represent a correct circa 1948 Lyman 48WJS sight as would have been factory installed. Note in addition to the “half block” (cut out to avoid stock inletting), the target knobs, the leaf return spring on the left side (the internal coil spring, like the “hunter knobs” came later), and the 60-point slide:
For completeness, the sight on the LEFT in the next photo is a Lyman 57W that was a cataloged option from 1937-1946. The one on the right is a Lyman 57WJS (with Hunter knobs). The 57WJS came along later, after the Lyman 57 sight option was dropped from the catalog:
As always, I welcome corrections if I’m wrong about any of this stuff!!!
Hope this helps, Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Sometimes the aperture was removed entirely to get a “ghost ring” effect for snap shooting at moving targets.
The first variation of the 48, when it was made only for ’03 Springfields, included no disk at all, only the same turn-down peep used in #1 tang sights, which for most purposes, Lyman advised hunters to leave in the “down” position for that “ghost ring” effect.
Three principal generic model eras “series” of the great Lyman 48 receiver sight. 1911 to about 1921, the first. From recollection, calibrated to “150”. Quite long slide and very large stock ‘incision’ to accommodate . Removal, remnant more than just a stock scar! Looks more like open pit mining! I have such a junker low number ’03 Springfield that wore one. Fifty dollar purchase for whole sporterized rifle, just for that sight. Left horrible ‘open wound’ when salvaging collector-pricey sight!
From 1921 to “late forties” the second “series” 48. Not to say or imply when the Model 70 might have inherited the third model, but would think possible a ’48 with second series from factory. You all know better. The third, with several slide configurations perhaps depending on rifle model and fitting a wide manufacturer variety. I’ve found that some of those third model units ‘allegedly’ curing the stock-divot problem, yet not fitting due to ‘fat stock’ syndrome. Requiring some minor inletting. The problem of course, once chisel to wood, a permanent scar. Otherwise that last model to be removable without trace except perhaps minor bluing scuffs.
Far as I’m concerned, the Lyman 48 best of mainstream domestic receiver sights where model conforming. Any Model 70 in most chamberings, to my mind benefiting alternative to scope.
Another ‘bene’ of such as a 1948 vintage Model 70 as far as I’m concerned, the very nice forged-integral front sight ramp!
Just my take
John
Hi Lou,
This is my first attempt to attach photos and I can’t figure it out. How did you do it?
Thanks.
Kit
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Kit-
To post photos directly you have to be a paid-up WACA member and be logged onto the site. Then you can click on the “upload attachments” button at the bottom of the page, which will open a “select files” field into which you can “drag and drop” your image files. They pretty much have to be in .jpeg format to upload and work best if each individual file is <1 MB. Once dropped you click “add files” and it all works (most of the time). 
None of that works if you are not a WACA member and logged in. 
So your options are:
1. Post your photos to a third party hosting site and then copy/paste the link into your WACA post (like what folks on here do when they’re linking to a GB or auction house listing.
2. Send them to me ([email protected]) and I will post them for you.
Hope this helps,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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