Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
English proofs on 1894 deluxe
July 31, 2021
12:09 am
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1177
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
July 31, 2021
3:39 am
Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3360
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sweet 1894. Since the proofs were a requirement of the place and time I wouldn’t hold it against a rifle I wanted. Opinions vary. One concern is that our friends across the pond are quite adept at refinishing firearms and wouldn’t hesitate to “update” a rifle as beautiful as this one. If you’re interested I’d ask Leroy or Mark how they feel about it. It looks good to me but they’ve handled it. That is one beautiful 94!

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
July 31, 2021
6:34 am
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1177
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks Mike.  You and I share the same thoughts.  It’s a beautiful rifle and would love to own it but it’s a bit out of my price range right now.  I was wondering what the fellow collectors thought about the English proofs.  It seems the proofs negatively affect the desirability of some models like the 1873’s and 1886’s more than others.  Haven’t seen too many English proofed 1894’s so was looking for opinions/education.

Don

July 31, 2021
4:06 pm
Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1091
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Don

Although its a nice looking specimen in a great caliber, all the extra markings bother me a bit. I’m not sure why, and I cant really quantify how much it might detract, but it just seems excessive to me. It would play into any offer I might consider. If by some miracle there were two identical rifles prices the same and one had these marks, I would choose the one without the proofs. 

As a side note, extra marks from shops here in the states (like Sheard or similar) are of interest to me and I might pay a bit more for those, just because I find them unique. 

~Gary~

1894-Deluxe-Avatar.jpg

July 31, 2021
4:11 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 11852
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Don,

The British markings on that rifle are much more recent than the age of the rifle.  Specifically I am referring to the “NOT ENGLISH MAKE” marking on the receiver frame and on the barrel.  I am not of the opinion that it was originally exported to the UK when it shipped out of the warehouse in February 1905.  Additionally of concern to me is the fact that it was shipped with a Lyman No. 1 tang sight which is now missing.  The 3-leaf barrel mounted sight was undoubtedly installed during its time in the UK.  All of that stated, it appears to have its original factory finish on it, and it is a great configuration/variation.

I personally have no issues with a Winchester that was ordered & shipped to the UK, and has the appropriate proof markings stamped on it.  This rifle does not fit that description.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

July 31, 2021
8:08 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2809
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Some collectors want guns that were used in the US.

July 31, 2021
10:09 pm
Avatar
Wisconsin
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4927
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The earlier guns with export markings affect the values more than later guns since the collectors of early Winchester like the guns that went West and British proofs don’t fit their collecting philosophy. I do know if your had that gun next to another of the same configuration and condition without proofs, the one without proofs will sell quicker and for more money but I never looked at British proofed guns enough to figure out how much it will affect it. I always wanted a 73 with a 7 leaf sight and most of them were exported and proofed but I did find one.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: bob.1873man@gmail.com

July 31, 2021
10:52 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1016
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have no problem owning a British shipped 1873 or 1886 and if the proofs lessen my purchase price, all the better, but it MUST have condition!

August 1, 2021
1:05 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 803
Member Since:
December 21, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I looked at that piece of Leroy’s, and it is a beautiful ’94, but I am in the middle of a couple other large endeavors right now, a Win. 1886 musket and a Colt “Texas Patterson”, and I had to let it pass. Congats Don on a acquiring a fine Winchester. We’ve had this discussion before , about non U.S. proofs etc., and I am still of the same opinion that, for Me , anyway, being Canadian and all, the British proof marks would not affect the value of this or any other gun to Me. In fact I find them being a little more desireable, having known where they’ve been. By the way I now have My display of all the production, pre 1900 Winchesters lever guns, in standard configuration, carbine, rifle and musket, from the Henry to the ,95 put together, 29 guns, and it will be displayed at the first available opportunity here. I will post some pics later when I get the background worked out.

W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.

August 1, 2021
6:11 pm
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1177
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks for the input everyone.  It sounds like the consensus is there is no real consensus.  I guess it comes down to buy what you like and like what you buy.  I like this gun and if I had the money I would buy it.

Don

August 1, 2021
6:19 pm
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1177
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bert H. said
Don,

The British markings on that rifle are much more recent than the age of the rifle.  Specifically I am referring to the “NOT ENGLISH MAKE” marking on the receiver frame and on the barrel.  I am not of the opinion that it was originally exported to the UK when it shipped out of the warehouse in February 1905.  Additionally of concern to me is the fact that it was shipped with a Lyman No. 1 tang sight which is now missing.  The 3-leaf barrel mounted sight was undoubtedly installed during its time in the UK.  All of that stated, it appears to have its original factory finish on it, and it is a great configuration/variation.

I personally have no issues with a Winchester that was ordered & shipped to the UK, and has the appropriate proof markings stamped on it.  This rifle does not fit that description.

Bert  

That’s interesting Bert.  Do you see old Engish markings as well as later applied markings?  Or all from the same timeframe?  Any reason that it could have gone through the proof house twice at different timeframes?  Any idea what date range the “NOT ENGLISH MAKE” could have been applied?  Interesting gun and I don’t expect you to have all the answers, but just wondering in case you do.

Don

August 1, 2021
6:41 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 11852
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Don,

I believe (not 100% sure though) that the “Not English Make” was a WW II era or post WW II marking.  I do not have the requisite knowledge to put a reference date on the other markings.  That stated, I do not believe that the gun went through the UK’s proof house more than once… there would be no reason for that to have transpired.  The person you might ask about the markings on the subject Model 1894 is Alan David (he is the fellow conducting the survey on the “DCP” marked Winchesters).  I am sure that he can provide a detailed answer in regards to the British markings on this rifle.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

August 1, 2021
11:46 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2424
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

pdog72 said
Don

Although its a nice looking specimen in a great caliber, all the extra markings bother me a bit. I’m not sure why, and I cant really quantify how much it might detract, but it just seems excessive to me. It would play into any offer I might consider. If by some miracle there were two identical rifles prices the same and one had these marks, I would choose the one without the proofs. 

As a side note, extra marks from shops here in the states (like Sheard or similar) are of interest to me and I might pay a bit more for those, just because I find them unique.   

I find myself feeling the same – that’s a lot of extra marks.

August 2, 2021
3:29 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5
Member Since:
November 13, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

that peticular mark  “not English make” was used between 1925-1954

Jeremy S.

CFM MEMBER, WACA MEMBER, BNFC MEMBER,  JSSC MEMBER, CGN MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

August 3, 2021
2:46 am
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1177
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

JEREMY S. said
that peticular mark  “not English make” was used between 1925-1954  

Thank you for the info.  I’m sure this rifle would have an interesting story to tell.

August 5, 2021
10:25 am
Avatar
Sydney Australia
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 131
Member Since:
February 4, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

As Jermy S  says the the NOT ENGLISH MAKE, was applied to ‘foreign’ guns from 1925 to 1954.

 

All the markings are London proof house marks. I think it has been proofed twice, once when it arrived in the UK, pre 1925 and again at some point between 1925 ans 1954.

 

I think the CORDITE & MAX markings were applied between 1925 and 1954 but were not used for the whole of this period as far as I can see. I did contact both proof houses in the UK about this Cordite marking with one of them acknowledging they did not know the period of time it was used in!

I could be wrong and the CORDITE marking was in use from 1904 to 1925, but more research is needed to be sure.

 

Regards

 

Alan

August 5, 2021
2:13 pm
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1177
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

aland said
As Jermy S  says the the NOT ENGLISH MAKE, was applied to ‘foreign’ guns from 1925 to 1954.

 

All the markings are London proof house marks. I think it has been proofed twice, once when it arrived in the UK, pre 1925 and again at some point between 1925 ans 1954.

 

I think the CORDITE & MAX markings were applied between 1925 and 1954 but were not used for the whole of this period as far as I can see. I did contact both proof houses in the UK about this Cordite marking with one of them acknowledging they did not know the period of time it was used in!

I could be wrong and the CORDITE marking was in use from 1904 to 1925, but more research is needed to be sure.

 

Regards

 

Alan  

That’s interesting Alan that it could have gone through the proof house twice.  I wonder why?

Don

September 19, 2021
8:30 pm
Avatar
Nottinghamshire, United Kingdom
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
May 3, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Any work on a pressure bearing part and the rifle is supposed to be reproofed.

BASC member

September 19, 2021
10:37 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 279
Member Since:
August 27, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

All those proofs are very distracting.

September 19, 2021
10:50 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2424
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tedk said
All those proofs are very distracting.  

Yet many (sellers) will ascribe a premium.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: rogertherelic, neonpeon
47 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 9183

Posts: 79070


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1238

Members: 10633

Moderators: 4

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 4927

TXGunNut: 3360

clarence: 3240

Chuck: 2809

twobit: 2717

steve004: 2424

Maverick: 1801

Big Larry: 1631

JWA: 1605

RickC: 1408