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Bert H. said

M64lvr said

This bullet is made by Barnes specifically for the 30-30. I think for sometime, by wishes and demand, trying to duplicate the 303 Savage followers, and from all load and velocity datas I’ve found, and it’s a lot, they’ve pretty well succeeded! The fastest I’ve seen of a 303 190gr RN tested was 2,240fps. 

Bullet seated to factory cannelure= 2.54″, LVR=33.8grs-the max of Barnes testing recommendations, Avg Velocity = 2,180fps, Rem Case, CCI 200 Prmr.

I had read for years the effectiveness of the 303 Savages up North, hey, it’s impressive for such a small cartridge! Why am I interested? Well, you don’t know till you try, and I’ve done fine so far in 2 other 30-30s, Marlins, and last year the Hornady 160ftx, and it dropped it in its tracks, but I didn’t like what I found of the remains of the bullet, really nothing substantial, apparently totally fragmented. And I’ve done fine with Remington CL & Win PP factory in past.

But I hunt big mountains, heavy brush usually, and shots are most always inside 75yds. And a shot at one these big mountain deer are few and far between! From my results with this load since end last deer season, I’m now of mind I might use it! It or the Nosler Pt 170gr I’ve also been working on, 2300fps from same cases and prmr,  LVR=35.5gr. The heavier bullet actually caries better at longer ranges with these velocities and at 50yds is more accurate. 

But I understand only true answer to my question is probably an educated guess? But that’s my question and welcome to an answer from anyone who might know better??

Interesting, but when I want a .30 caliber gun with a bit more oomph than the 30-30 can deliver, I grab my trusty old Springfield Krag in 30 U.S. (30/40 Krag), or my Winchester Model 54 in .30 GOV’T 06.  Both can launch 220-gr loads at very respectable velocities. I killed my first Bull Elk with that old Krag rifle… one shot behind the left front shoulder and through the vitals and he dropped like a proverbial rock!  Never found a good reason to acquire a rifle in 300 Mag.

  

Re the 71: it’s a lot of dollars for many of us and it was a big stretch to finally get mine. Had to live on peanut butter for a while. 

Your handloads: It doesn’t sound to me like you’re abusing the rifle at all. Do you get much case stretching?  With a rear locking action I like to shine a light into the cases and feel for the expansion ring with a dental pick. 

For Bert: I think the Krag is severely underrated by the unenlightened.. It will do everything the .300 Savage will do and then some. In the Texas Hill Country before WWII,  old timers used to tell me more deer hunters showed uo with a Savage 99 .300 than with “woods caliber: rifles. 

And there’s nothing that walks that can’t be (and hasn’t been)  taken with the .30 Govt ’06. Hemingway routinely killed Cape Buffalo with his Springfield. 

clarence said

Zebulon said Hemingway routinely killed Cape Buffalo with his Springfield.   

And lions!  But with “solids,” which he was always praising, though that meant no bullet expansion. 

  

I’d forgotten that. But we can add Tigers and elephants to the tally. Mrs. O’Connor’s “heavy rifle” was a Model 70 .30/06 stocked by Lenard Brownell, with which she brained an elephant in Africa and a big Bengal tiger in the India highlands. 220 grain bullets, solid for the elephant and a softness for the cat. 

It’s a very flexible round. Up to about 250 yards you can make a  120 grain .308 spitzer look like a .270, as well. 

Bert H. said

Zebulon said

Bert H. said

 

Interesting, but when I want a .30 caliber gun with a bit more oomph than the 30-30 can deliver, I grab my trusty old Springfield Krag in 30 U.S. (30/40 Krag), or my Winchester Model 54 in .30 GOV’T 06.  Both can launch 220-gr loads at very respectable velocities. I killed my first Bull Elk with that old Krag rifle… one shot behind the left front shoulder and through the vitals and he dropped like a proverbial rock!  Never found a good reason to acquire a rifle in 300 Mag.

For Bert: I think the Krag is severely underrated by the unenlightened.. It will do everything the .300 Savage will do and then some. In the Texas Hill Country before WWII,  old timers used to tell me more deer hunters showed uo with a Savage 99 .300 than with “woods caliber: rifles. 

You are probably correct about the “unenlightened” crowd.  I began my hunting career in 1970 with a Model 1892 Springfield Krag rifle that was manufactured in the year 1895 (s/n 25766).  My dad had owned the rifle for nearly 30-years, and he gave it to me for my first Black Tail deer hunt (on the northwest coast of Oregon) in August of 1970 (my birthday gift).  It had been professionally shortened to a 22-inch barrel length, but it was (still is) otherwise factory original.  We handloaded 150-gr loads for deer, and 220-gr loads for Elk.  It kicks like a mule with the 220-gr loads, but I never felt it when shooting that Bull Elk.

Today, I have two Single Shot (high-wall) rifles that were factory chambered for the 30 U.S. cartridge, and I still have that old 1895 production Model 1892 Springfield.

This is one of my nicer high-wall rifles (I put the Lyman No. 103 tang sight on it);

  

That is a gorgeous high wall. Am I correct that’s a .30/06?  Isn’t “,30 Army” the 30/40 and “.30 U.S.”  the ’06? 

Several years ago, we drove out of Portland on the Sunset Highway in early November to Wheeler, then down the coast to Garibaldi and Tillamook, and up to Astoria. Roosevelt Elk season was on but the forests looked prehistoric enough to support tags for a T. Rex.  I expect in 1970 the Coast Range was even more remote. You were fortunate to have the experience of hunting there. I remember telling my wife, if I’d been born and raised here, it would be very hard to leave. 

My younger son has serious Black bear trouble on Cougar Mountain in Issaquah. Says the same 350-400 pounder has decimated his wife’s chickens and ducks, over several visits. Oregon game people told him the bear is bought and paid for and can be baited and shot.

I mention this because son’s weapon of choice is my former, minty and very underrated  Winchester 59 with slugs. He’s run the critter off with rubber ball a couple of times and says.the gun will keep lead slugs in a coffee can lid at 50 yards. If he weren’t 1100 miles away I’d go help him. 

Zebulon said
Everyone to their own taste,  said the old woman as she kissed the cow. 

If your Winchester collection contains nothing made after 1921, that certainly gives you an unusual perspective. The period between World Wars  is almost universally conceded to be the high point of hand-made American craftsmanship. I know it to be true for pianos and will take your word for it as to Winchesters. 

You’ve obviously seen and handled a lot of post-1921 rifles.  You’ve previously mentioned a 1987 Model 70 and your 1979 Marlin Model 39A, among others. (I agree with you about the end-of’the’bolt 39A. Dwight Mann sold me a 1956 Golden Mountie and it’s better, albeit not perfect.)

I’m curious: what is your opinion of the quality of the most current production Winchester branded lever action rifles, those built entirely by Miroku? 

I have not handled anything built by Miroku, but I should imagine that it is a quality firearm.  Just not something I am interested in.

I should say that my interest in earlier firearm is simply because the number of quality—with condition—Winchesters available far exceeds my finite funds, and one must pick and choose.  Having said that, much of the stuff I am interested in has some wear, which serves a twofold purpose:  Drives the price down and likely to be more honest.  85 to 95% is the golden spot.  If one wants quality and not the risks (or, rather, a lesser risk) of a good refinish being passed off as original, then the Model 71, 53/65, and 55/64 would be a better area of focus, and these all postdate the extent of my collection.  Lately, all I have bought is stuff in this 85-95% range and, more often than not, I have an idea as to where this Winchester has been the last 30+ years.  The only exception to this that I can recall recently was a Model 1886 circa 1906 that was at auction and selling too cheaply for what it is, and it checks out okay.

Again, with limited funds, one does have to focus.  There’s a Model 64 I’m aware of, and have fired, 1940 production, I wouldn’t mind owning.  It’s this very rifle that has made me decide there IS a difference between pre WWII and post WWII Winchester rifles.  The fit, finish, and walnut quality is so much better than the post WWII Model 64’s I have handled.  I will say the Model 54 is a quality firearm, as is the Model 70 and I would like to obtain someday a pre WWII Model 70 in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum.

M64lvr said
This bullet is made by Barnes specifically for the 30-30. I think for sometime, by wishes and demand, trying to duplicate the 303 Savage followers, and from all load and velocity datas I’ve found, and it’s a lot, they’ve pretty well succeeded! The fastest I’ve seen of a 303 190gr RN tested was 2,240fps. 

Bullet seated to factory cannelure= 2.54″, LVR=33.8grs-the max of Barnes testing recommendations, Avg Velocity = 2,180fps, Rem Case, CCI 200 Prmr.

I had read for years the effectiveness of the 303 Savages up North, hey, it’s impressive for such a small cartridge! Why am I interested? Well, you don’t know till you try, and I’ve done fine so far in 2 other 30-30s, Marlins, and last year the Hornady 160ftx, and it dropped it in its tracks, but I didn’t like what I found of the remains of the bullet, really nothing substantial, apparently totally fragmented. And I’ve done fine with Remington CL & Win PP factory in past.

But I hunt big mountains, heavy brush usually, and shots are most always inside 75yds. And a shot at one these big mountain deer are few and far between! From my results with this load since end last deer season, I’m now of mind I might use it! It or the Nosler Pt 170gr I’ve also been working on, 2300fps from same cases and prmr,  LVR=35.5gr. The heavier bullet actually caries better at longer ranges with these velocities and at 50yds is more accurate. 

But I understand only true answer to my question is probably an educated guess? But that’s my question and welcome to an answer from anyone who might know better??

  

I’ve never tried it, but I have heard of .30WCF users pulling 190 grain bullets from .303 Savage cartridges and loading them in .30 WCF cases.  The .303 Savage had a good reputation and I suppose the .30 WCF loaded with that bullet would give you basically the same thing.