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Early 94 Big Bore AE
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Bo Rich
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June 5, 2024 - 9:04 pm
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Let me begin to state that I am not that interested in post 1964 Winchesters.  US Repeating Arms as well.  However, I have found that the Model 94 Bigbore A.E. made from 1983-1984 interesting.  This was Winchester/ US Repeating Arms idea to introduce a powerful deluxe carbine.  Introduced in the more powerful .307, and .356 Winchester, as well as the .375 Win. as the cataloged stated in 1983.  This carbine featured a Monte Carlo checkered stock with pretty wood.  The blue was highly finished.  Also included Weaver style rings, and bases.  A hammer extension that can be used for a right or left hand shooter.  The hammer was the half cocked type.  Also quick detachable sling swivels.  The angle eject was a new feature for the Model 94.  Folks who wanted to scope the 94 could finally do it the proper way.   The Serial number for the above started at AE10001.  With the majority of carbines chambered in .307, and .356.  The .375 is scarce in this Model.  In the 1985 Catalog  the 94 Bigbore AE is pictured with a Monte Carlo uncheckered stock with no extras ie scope rings,bases, and swivels.  A economy version.  Also in the 1985 catalog Winchester states of an improved rebounding hammer for the Model 94.  When all the Model 94s went to the angle eject the Big Bore AE was serial numbered with the other 94s.  I recently picked up a 94 BigBore chambered in .375 Win.  This gun has all the early features of this Model, but with a rebounding hammer the serial number is AE22069.  Because of the rebounding hammer it was most likely made in very late 1984.  This was most likely one of the last ones made with the early features.  So, I would think that they made around 12,000 of this Model with the early features.  Kinda will be interesting to see if this style will be popular to the Winchester collector over the years.

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June 6, 2024 - 1:25 am
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It’s very hard to say if there will ever be collector interest in the AE “Winchesters” but they have appreciated in the last several years. If you’re a young man and you buy pristine examples you may do well enough. High condition pre-64’s are proven investment material, the post-63’s are not considered collectible by the traditional collector. I have an excellent example of a pre AE 375 Big Bore and it is a high quality, attractive rifle worth much more than I paid for it new. Unfortunately I’m unlikely to live long enough to see it attain “collectible” status.

 

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June 6, 2024 - 2:45 am
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Post 1963 Winchesters are disposable Winchesters.  Use until they no longer work, and discard.

It will be several lifetimes until they are collectible, if ever.

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mrcvs said
Post 1963 Winchesters are disposable Winchesters.  Use until they no longer work, and discard.

It will be several lifetimes until they are collectible, if ever.

  

Although I was repulsed by the new 1966 Model 70 .243 the late Jack McBride put in my hands so many years ago (which I refused to buy),  In 2002 I bought one of identical caliber and vintage in 99% condition. Nostalgia, I suppose, or a taste for the grotesque. 

But it was and still is a righteous half-inch rifle with 100 grain factory Power Points and not fussy to load for. Ugly as a blister, yes, although to my present eye a lot less than the current “modular” monstrosities. My older son now owns it with a Bausch & Lomb 50mm 4X-12X.

Having covetously examined several of the new Model 70 rifles at the recent Dallas NRA Convention,  I think they are a long, long way from 1966. I wouldn’t swap my 1950 Super Grade for the tiger tail maple stocked SG I handled. But I would be pleased to find a place for it. 

- Bill 

 

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June 6, 2024 - 12:32 pm
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mrcvs said
Post 1963 Winchesters are disposable Winchesters.  Use until they no longer work, and discard.

It will be several lifetimes until they are collectible, if ever.

  

The 52 Sporting repros made by Miroku have doubled in value since the ’90s.

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June 6, 2024 - 12:45 pm
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clarence said

mrcvs said

Post 1963 Winchesters are disposable Winchesters.  Use until they no longer work, and discard.

It will be several lifetimes until they are collectible, if ever.

  

The 52 Sporting repros made by Miroku have doubled in value since the ’90s.  

So has everything else.  Just due to inflation.  You won’t find a $250 firearm anymore unless it’s junk.

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June 6, 2024 - 5:09 pm
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mrcvs said

clarence said

mrcvs said

Post 1963 Winchesters are disposable Winchesters.  Use until they no longer work, and discard.

It will be several lifetimes until they are collectible, if ever.

  

The 52 Sporting repros made by Miroku have doubled in value since the ’90s.  

So has everything else.  Just due to inflation.  You won’t find a $250 firearm anymore unless it’s junk.

  

Well, not everything else.  There are things in somewhat collectible condition that were once in greater demand than now. 99% high grade Winchester Model 12 small bores are unlikely to ever get cheaper. However, I have observed nice full choke 12 gauge field grade versions that have fallen from their highs of several years ago, in real dollars.

Likewise, 30/06 caliber, standard grade, pre-64 Model 70 rifles made in the early Sixties on worn tooling have not kept pace, in real dollars.

I’ve owned and shot a Miroku-built Winchester 52B Sporting and presently own and shoot an end-of-the bolt, 1960 vintage, 52C Sporting.  Nostalgically I prefer the 52C but the checkering on the Miroku was better and the rifle itself was at least as accurate on the bench.  Overall, the workmanship on the Miroku was slightly superior. 

I could go on but will.stop by mentioning the post-63 Winchester 320 bolt action 22 rimfire, built on the Warne-designed, Australian Sportco action, the same employed in the later Kimber of Oregon Model 82.  A good friend of mine owns one and, except for its pedestrian styling and impressed checkering, is as fine a 22 bolt gun as ever came out of New Haven. Sadly, It took Jack Warne to see the unsatisfied demand for a classic styled, high grade rimfire in the early Eighties. WRA had it in their hands but were over-focused on high speed production. Their union troubles didn’t help, of course. 

- Bill 

 

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June 6, 2024 - 5:41 pm
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The rifles under discussion don’t trip my trigger, but it’s all relative.  That is, there are rifles I like a whole lot less.  

By the way, I’ve had a Winchester M320 for over 40 years.  All my kids learned how to shoot .22 on it.  It was (and is) an accurate rifle with a great trigger.  

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June 6, 2024 - 6:21 pm
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steve004 said
The rifles under discussion don’t trip my trigger, but it’s all relative.  That is, there are rifles I like a whole lot less.  

By the way, I’ve had a Winchester M320 for over 40 years.  All my kids learned how to shoot .22 on it.  It was (and is) an accurate rifle with a great trigger.  

  

The quality of “collectibility” is in the eyes of the beholder,  whose opinion is formed from many things, not least of which is personal experience.  The 1966 Model 70 I bought one night on Gunbroker started out as a cheap amusement, then became a less-cheap contest with somebody who had apparently gotten one just like it for Christmas decades ago. I confess I’d had a couple of Sundowners to relax after a day of interminable depositions. On a clear morning, I’d have let him have it.  

My point, I suppose,  is there were two of us and it is human nature to become invested in things for all sorts of reasons. There’s no ultimate truth about Winchesters, any more than other Worldly goods. 

- Bill 

 

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June 6, 2024 - 6:27 pm
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These early 94 Big Bore AE Models are now at least 40 years old.  It is funny how time flies!  They are very nice carbines with low production numbers.  Not everybody can afford a high grade Model 1886.  I have often read that young people don’t collect Winchesters because they are too expensive.  I feel that this may be an affordable option.  I think that if any Post 1964 Winchester may become collectible this may be the one.  

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June 6, 2024 - 7:39 pm
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As to the value and collectability of post ’63 Winchesters, try buyin’ a 16″ large loop lever Wrangler or a 9410 deluxe or some of the rarer commemoratives, then tell Me all about the collectability of these guns. Ian I think You are way out of touch with the collectability of these guns, maybe just because You don’t like ’em , but I don’t think they should all be condemned to the trash bucket. There are folks that do collect post ’63 Winchesters and some of them are very difficult to find. Just sayin’. We here on the forum  should maybe broaden our horizons a little , get into accepting the new rhealm of collectors. I went through all this back in the 1970’s when the fellas were collecting Pennsyvania rifles, Sniders,  Model ’85’s etc. and You see where they’ve gone, and ’94  were not considered collectable at the time, on the other hand a ’94 big bore that I have bought and sold in the $500.00 range in the past, would be hard to find under $1500.00 now a days. Likewise some of the other post ’63 Winchesters. Just sayin’.

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June 6, 2024 - 8:06 pm
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Henry Mero said
As to the value and collectability of post ’63 Winchesters, try buyin’ a 16″ large loop lever Wrangler or a 9410 deluxe or some of the rarer commemoratives, then tell Me all about the collectability of these guns. Ian I think You are way out of touch with the collectability of these guns, maybe just because You don’t like ’em , but I don’t think they should all be condemned to the trash bucket. There are folks that do collect post ’63 Winchesters and some of them are very difficult to find. Just sayin’. We here on the forum  should maybe broaden our horizons a little , get into accepting the new rhealm of collectors. I went through all this back in the 1970’s when the fellas were collecting Pennsyvania rifles, Sniders,  Model ’85’s etc. and You see where they’ve gone, and ’94  were not considered collectable at the time, on the other hand a ’94 big bore that I have bought and sold in the $500.00 range in the past, would be hard to find under $1500.00 now a days. Likewise some of the other post ’63 Winchesters. Just sayin’.  

Then maybe a Post 1963 section of the forum is necessary?  I just don’t see the demand, but, on the other hand, several million Model 1894s were manufactured and you never see them for sale.  They must be somewhere.  I suppose the original owners are holding on to them.

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June 6, 2024 - 9:29 pm
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mrcvs said

Henry Mero said

As to the value and collectability of post ’63 Winchesters, try buyin’ a 16″ large loop lever Wrangler or a 9410 deluxe or some of the rarer commemoratives, then tell Me all about the collectability of these guns. Ian I think You are way out of touch with the collectability of these guns, maybe just because You don’t like ’em , but I don’t think they should all be condemned to the trash bucket. There are folks that do collect post ’63 Winchesters and some of them are very difficult to find. Just sayin’. We here on the forum  should maybe broaden our horizons a little , get into accepting the new rhealm of collectors. I went through all this back in the 1970’s when the fellas were collecting Pennsyvania rifles, Sniders,  Model ’85’s etc. and You see where they’ve gone, and ’94  were not considered collectable at the time, on the other hand a ’94 big bore that I have bought and sold in the $500.00 range in the past, would be hard to find under $1500.00 now a days. Likewise some of the other post ’63 Winchesters. Just sayin’.  

Then maybe a Post 1963 section of the forum is necessary?  I just don’t see the demand, but, on the other hand, several million Model 1894s were manufactured and you never see them for sale.  They must be somewhere.  I suppose the original owners are holding on to them.

  

If anything is missing from this discussion, it seems to me it is the dramatic difference between the 1964 Winchester guns and those made in New Haven and Tochigi Prefecture in 1980, although all are “post-63” production.

Never mind (for the moment) those made in New Haven and Tochigi Prefecture from 1981 until the closing of the New Haven factory and the acquisition of the brand and manufacturing assets by Herstal.  

And the subsequent production by or at the behest of Herstal in Carolina, Tokyo, Leige, and Portugal, among other places. 

To compare extremes,  lay a 1965 Model 88 down beside a 1990 vintage Model 9422.  A blind man could feel the difference in manufacturing quality and the sighted could see it at twenty feet. 

In fairness, you could get the same result with a 1955 Model 88 and the 1965 version. I owned one of the former for years and, except for the trigger, it was a beauty. The 1965 version is what we think of as a “post-63”, a sad sight indeed with its pseudo-floral carving. 

In sum, i think there are good and less good Winchesters, in various time periods and with the vicissitudes of changing management and technology. The Winchester Model 40 automatic was probably the bottom. At least the 1964 Model 94, although no thing of grace or beauty, was a reliable shooter.  Dare I mention it does not hold a candle to current Miroku production? 

- Bill 

 

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I must admit I wanted a Big Bore in 356 but couldn’t stomach the AE. Good thing, the ammo was practically discontinued almost immediately. I handled my BB in 375 today, along with my 2009 vintage SG M70 30-06. Beautiful guns. 

 

Mike

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June 6, 2024 - 10:20 pm
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TXGunNut said
I must admit I wanted a Big Bore in 356 but couldn’t stomach the AE. Good thing, the ammo was practically discontinued almost immediately. I handled my BB in 375 today, along with my 2009 vintage SG M70 30-06. Beautiful guns. 

 

Mike

  

Speaking of which, does the 375 case have a parent?  I finally managed to score some 35 Remington ammo, albeit  for a disgusting price. The 35 Rem doesn’t have a parent although I’ve seen some kluged up from Krag brass. 

- Bill 

 

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June 6, 2024 - 11:06 pm
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Zebulon said In sum, i think there are good and less good Winchesters, in various time periods and with the vicissitudes of changing management and technology.   

1964-68 was the nadir.  But the “New, New Mod 70” of ’68 with the anti-bind bolt was a turning point, & improvements began to be made.  Even better guns (TRUE “Winchesters” they were) were made when USRA assumed control.

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June 7, 2024 - 1:00 am
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I think that the arrogance is some what over whelming on this subject. Personally I don’t care what anyone collects as long as it is a firearm. With out us this whole thing would collapse and we would just be mumbling to ourselves. Maybe something branded with the Winchester logo today ain’t what yo’all want, but some do. So my advice is be carful of the toes your stepping on as they are the next generation of care takers for the collections we have. Case in point I will never tell my son that the 94AE trapper in 44mag that I gave him as a birthday gift is some piece of junk to be thrown away later, He shot his firstIMG_0304.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0305.JPGImage Enlarger whitetail buck with it and will live here for ever.

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 What particularly sticks in the craw of some of my friends is the “lawyer-mandated” tang safety installed in the Miroku-built Winchester Models 1886, 1892, 1894, and 1895, and the rebounding hammers of some of them. 

I will make an educated guess that Herstal’s attorneys had little or nothing to do with those modifications. I would guess further that Herstal’s product liability insurer, let’s call it “Holy Grail Casualty”, and very likely its reinsurance carrier,  “Holy Grail Re”, dictates the requirement as a condition of coverage and/or a premium that won’t bankrupt the company.  

Also, while I’m not knowledgeable about federal sporting arms import regulations, I think it’s very possible Herstal could not import these guns without satisfying some mechanical safety requirement. I just don’t know but it smells like it. 

However there’s something curious: Miroku builds a very handsome Model 1873 (extra wood,  hand fit action and light trigger) that is a dead ringer for the last 1873 saddle ring carbines built in New Haven in the Nineteen Twenties.  This new gun is styled the “Competition Carbine” and It does NOT have a mechanical safety (beyond the half-cock hammer notch) nor does it have a rebounding hammer. The factory manual jumps through its hat to point these two things out. 

I’m not sure why Herstal is comfortable making this exception. If anybody knows, I’d appreciate being schooled. The only thing I can guess is it has something to do with being designed for competition….

- Bill 

 

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June 7, 2024 - 1:15 am
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oldcrankyyankee said
I think that the arrogance is some what over whelming on this subject. Personally I don’t care what anyone collects as long as it is a firearm. With out us this whole thing would collapse and we would just be mumbling to ourselves. Maybe something branded with the Winchester logo today ain’t what yo’all want, but some do. So my advice is be carful of the toes your stepping on as they are the next generation of care takers for the collections we have. Case in point I will never tell my son that the 94AE trapper in 44mag that I gave him as a birthday gift is some piece of junk to be thrown away later, He shot his firstIMG_0304.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0305.JPGImage Enlarger whitetail buck with it and will live here for ever.  

If I came across as arrogant, that wasn’t the intention.

I did handle a post 1963 1894 Winchester once.  IIRC, it was 1970 production, the year I was born.  Now, that was absolutely junk.

You’re also not going to find a pre 1964 Winchester rifle in .44 mag, and so if you want that, it will have to be  post 1963.

Maybe I should have said I don’t see these being collectible RELATIVE to the pre 1964 and especially the pre WWII stuff out there.

But, as a WORKING TOOL and not a collectible, I did handle and fire a USRA Model 70 in .300 H & H Magnum and it was a very good working tool.  The workmanship is certainly not as good as pre1964 stuff, but about as good as one could expect for something circa 1987.

If you suspect I’m biased, I am.  Everyone had a finite amount of funds to spend on Winchester rifles, and the thought that would go through my head if I bought a post 1963 Winchester is what pre 1964 example could I use this money towards instead, this example likely being pre WWI, if not pre 1898.

Winchester really started to cut corners, at least aesthetically, when they shortened the forearm on the 1894 carbine and that was the beginning of the long slide downhill.

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June 7, 2024 - 2:52 am
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Zebulon said

TXGunNut said

I must admit I wanted a Big Bore in 356 but couldn’t stomach the AE. Good thing, the ammo was practically discontinued almost immediately. I handled my BB in 375 today, along with my 2009 vintage SG M70 30-06. Beautiful guns. 

 

Mike

  

Speaking of which, does the 375 case have a parent?  I finally managed to score some 35 Remington ammo, albeit  for a disgusting price. The 35 Rem doesn’t have a parent although I’ve seen some kluged up from Krag brass. 

  

Yes, it’s alarmingly similar to its parent case, the 38-55. I load and shoot both so I use only correct headstamp brass. My 375 loads would be very stressful to a vintage 38-55.

 

Mike

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