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February 17, 2022
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Not normally my cup of tea, but I recently saw a 66 rifle in CF. I understand that a number of them were converted in this way. So my dumb question is what cartridge was used after being converted? 44-40?
October 29, 2011
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44 Russian???
April 15, 2005
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The cartridge was a center fire version of the original 44 Henry cartridge.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 30, 2023
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There’s some pics of it in Les Quick’s Henry book on p. 202
May 2, 2009
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This has been discussed here quite extensively.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/winchester-model-1866-caliber/
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
March 31, 2009
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oldcrankyyankee said
Not normally my cup of tea, but I recently saw a 66 rifle in CF. I understand that a number of them were converted in this way. So my dumb question is what cartridge was used after being converted? 44-40?
Read the thread Bob posted. Winchester did make some for South America. These all have a B stamped on the barrel and are in a specific serial number range. Once people saw what it would take to convert one on their own, many did. The Russian case can be used or the S&W 44 Spl. I have never seen a box of Win CF for the 66. I’m sure someone has.
May 23, 2009
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Chuck said
I have never seen a box of Win CF for the 66. I’m sure someone has.
The only box that I’m aware of is mentioned and shown on this forum topic below. As stated on the forum its a hand written label and not a factory printed label. So it begs the question if such a printed label was ever used by the factory for said caliber.
Other than the box shown, I’ve not heard of any other such box for this caliber.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
September 19, 2014
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Old Cranky Yankee didn’t actually ask a dumb question. Years ago, Wolfe Publishing in their “Rifle” magazine, had an article on the model 1866 and published how Winchester chambered some in .44-40! I tried to educate the author and editor, but seemingly got no where. No correction, no acknowledgement of error. At least I wasn’t told to F…off! When editors/authors write erroneous info and don’t accept they may be wrong they then only sow false info for the readership. Still, it is up to us to try to educate them as best we can even if “unwashed, uneducated know nothings”! Tim
November 7, 2015
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Nope, not a dumb question. Answer is very interesting and as Tim points out not nearly as simple as 44WCF. I really enjoyed the thread Maverick posted the link to, it helped explain the rifles we see today and the condition we find them in.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Maverick said
Chuck said
I have never seen a box of Win CF for the 66. I’m sure someone has.
The only box that I’m aware of is mentioned and shown on this forum topic below. As stated on the forum its a hand written label and not a factory printed label. So it begs the question if such a printed label was ever used by the factory for said caliber.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/general-discussions-questions/1866-winchester-44-cal-cf/page-3/
Other than the box shown, I’ve not heard of any other such box for this caliber.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Maverick, now that you mention it, I remember seeing it.
December 21, 2006
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Will the old .44 Colt c.f. work in this ’66? I have a sealed box of Winchester .44 Colt c.f. made for the early Colt conversions.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
January 20, 2023
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Henry, isn’t that like eating your seed corn?
My very limited understanding, based on no personal experience whatsoever, is the Colt cartridge was only dissimilar in dimensions from the centerfire Henry cartridge in such minor ways, probably due to differences in manufacturing techniques, molds and dies, that they were interchangeable as a practical matter.
If I were you, I would not trust the foregoing untested opinion and get better advice from the one-eyed and three-fingered among us.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
December 21, 2006
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Oh, I don’t plan on opening a sealed box of .44 Colt c.f. to test fire in a ’66 c.f. that I also don’t have, I was just curious.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
September 19, 2014
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Henry, I doubt a .44 Colt would chamber. I understand, subject to a bit more research, the heeled bullet in the .44 Colt is a .451 diameter on the major portion of the bullet. The groove diameter on my 1866 SRC is .430. Now the .44 American no. 3 chambers and supposedly would work, but its bullet is near groove diameter of the barrel. Tim
March 31, 2009
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I will try to find a Colt cartridge and compare it to a Henry cartridge. I’ll have to did through the pile. There were some Colt’s chambered in 44 Henry just as S&W did.
January 20, 2023
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Chuck said
I will try to find a Colt cartridge and compare it to a Henry cartridge. I’ll have to did through the pile. There were some Colt’s chambered in 44 Henry just as S&W did.
I knew you’d come to the rescue, dial indicator in hand.
“Ready to copy.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
January 20, 2023
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tim tomlinson said
Old Cranky Yankee didn’t actually ask a dumb question. Years ago, Wolfe Publishing in their “Rifle” magazine, had an article on the model 1866 and published how Winchester chambered some in .44-40! I tried to educate the author and editor, but seemingly got no where. No correction, no acknowledgement of error. At least I wasn’t told to F…off! When editors/authors write erroneous info and don’t accept they may be wrong they then only sow false info for the readership. Still, it is up to us to try to educate them as best we can even if “unwashed, uneducated know nothings”! Tim
Tim, I haven’t looked the article up but, odds are it was written by the late Mike Venturino, who knew his subject very well. I suspect the error was on the part of a “helpful” but unknowledgeable copy editor.
Wolfe has a pretty small staff and is not in the habit of acknowledging much of anything. I once submitted a manuscript “over the transom” and never even got the courtesy of a rejection notice by email.or carrier pigeon.
More to the point, Mike V, when reviewing Smith & Wesson’s re-introduction of the Model 27 revolver as part of its “Classic Series”, erroneously wrote the top strap and barrel rib of the new Classic version was meticulously hand checkered as had been originally done. It was not. At all.
I fired off a friendly email to the magazine and Mike V and might as well have hollered down a rain barrel.
I don’t think they do this out of ignorance or arrogance but rather because of severe budget limitations. That Handloader and Rifle even continue to exist is probably a hairsbreath thing evey month, so I just cut them slack and keep my ire focused on the NY Times and PBS.
I do wonder, though, whether my old classmate, “Dynamite Dave” – who gained immortality by lifting the topstrap on three Ruger Redhawks — ever read the Rifle article you mention and acted on it with an original 66. I haven’t heard of or from Dave in years and perhaps that is why.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
September 19, 2014
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Zeb, No, it was not Mike V. I am pretty sure he would know better. One day in dark of winter, maybe I will dig the article out as I keep my back issues. Why? I’ve no idea as without some index its a fool’s errand to try to find what I think I remember. Tim
March 31, 2009
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Zebulon said
Chuck said
I will try to find a Colt cartridge and compare it to a Henry cartridge. I’ll have to did through the pile. There were some Colt’s chambered in 44 Henry just as S&W did.
I knew you’d come to the rescue, dial indicator in hand.
“Ready to copy.”
I just measured 11 ea. 44 Cal cartridges. Case diameter at the bullet, base diameter of the case, OAL of the case and OAL of the loaded cartridge. I really don’t want to do a spread sheet at this point but here are a few notes.
I started with the Henry but it comes in a lot of variations so I used one of the early ones. Martin primed Frankford Arsenal S&W American, Frankford Arsenal Martin primed Colt/Remington, Colt/Remington Benet primed, The rest are all Center Fire. WRACO Colt, Rem/UMC S&W Russian, Rem/UMC 44 S&W American, WRACO S&W American, UMC 44 Merwin and Holbert, a modern S&W 44 Special, and the 1866 Center fire.
The older Frankford Arsenal Colt/Rem Martin primed, Frankford Arsenal Benet primed Colt/Rem, WRACO CF Colt, UMC CF M+H and the S&W CF 44 Spl are the longest cases and would have to be trimmed. All the other measurements fluctuate but not as much as these longer cases.
I don’t have a modern CF S&W that hasn’t been trimmed already. The only S&W Russians I have are not modern but if the same general size should work.
The early Colt/Rem cartridges were for the converted Colts and the Remington Model 1858 before the Rollin White Patent expired in 1872.
The biggest difference I see with the small sample I have is that the first center fire 44 Colt is that the bullet diameter/case mouth and the base has a larger diameter than the 66 CF. But I’ve found that these old guns vary so much anything may fit. The 66 bullet diameter is about .007″ smaller that that of the Henry and Colt.
March 31, 2009
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I got thinking last night that I did not measure the rim diameter or the rim thickness. The rim diameter can easily be reduced if necessary and as long as it is large enough to keep the case from going into the chamber it should work.
The rim thickness on most Winchester cartridges is critical because it sets the head space. The thing is with the Henry and 66 it’s a bit confusing. If you’ve seen enough fired Henry or 66 cases you will see a lot of them with a bulged face. I’m not sure if this is an improper headspace issue or a manufacturing issue?
I will measure the rims on the Henry, 66 CF, S&W Spl and S&W Russian.
