Do you think this is legit?|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

The barrel stamp is completely wrong.  

Here is a side-by-side with a legit barrel stamp from an early 60s Featherweight rifle.

I’m not sure what the point is of faking a barrel stamp if you are going to do it this badly.  Either they weren’t trying to scam anyone, or they were incompetent in their attempt.

Sad that the auction has already been bid up to over $2,500 on a rifle worth less than $1,000.  I wonder if the seller knows.

sb said
Almost $4000 now……I guess it could be a shill bidder  

You would think people who are willing to spend this much on a rifle would at least make an attempt to validate the authenticity of the rifle. For a gun this rare, a true collector would be trying to work out the full provenance of the gun, rather than mindlessly bidding it up while ignoring obvious signs it is a fraud.

The unfortunate truth is that there are many faked “rare” model 70s. I have not heard of a knockoff .250 Savage chambering before, but there are multiple stories of fake 7mm (7 x 57mm) barrels out there which are virtually indistinguishable from the original. The problem of fakes is not helped by the fact some companies sell the the very tools needed to sustain the counterfeit parts industry – even if they do it under the guise of the disclaimer “Use for restoration purposes only”.

Aftermarket Winchester Proof Hand Stamp https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/850750.htm

Not every fake requires people to manufacture a “rare” part. Lou recently shared how some people piecing together rare super grade rifles from existing parts had a major effect on the value and availability of certain super grade chamberings. However people go about it, it is sad that for a small amount of money, some people are willing to undermine an entire collector market.  This is why the provenance of a rifle becomes so important.

BTW… I hope you didn’t mean that I make a habit of piecing together rare (or even common) SG rifles from parts.  Truth be told I’ve ‘permanently disassembled’ more SG “parts guns” (two) than I’ve created, having ‘decomissioned’ two fake SGs I discovered in my late Father’s collection.  If I were to create one, it would have to be for purposes of self delusion, as I am not a dealer and rarely sell anything.  I did buy a Redfield 255 sight from Pre-64 Win.com recently, however.  That much is true.  Check out their website if you have not already.

Thanks Lou.  Apologies if my post in any way sounded like you might have pieced together a rare rifle. I (as well as most on these boards) know you much better than this! All I meant to say was that you have superior knowledge than most of us about what to look for!

Thanks also for the plug for my new website. It’s our humble contribution to the the world of model 70 enthusiasts.

Louis Luttrell said

Your website is quite an asset and I think anybody who collects or shoots M70s should check it out… Good luck with the venture.

Thanks Lou.  This means a lot, considering the source.  

As we’ve discussed, I have a few rare barrels which I have decided to not list on the site.  We want to be an asset to collectors and enthusiasts, but we’re not really interested in supporting the fake rare guns business. We do sell the actions, as so many shooters want to pair up a pre-64 action with a custom barrel, but rare barrels is where we have drawn the line.

Louis Luttrell said

When I get around to it I want to post pics of my latest “restoration project”. A 1942 second variation Target Model in .257 ROBERTS. I’m a sucker for pre-war target models. Besides, looking for them saves a lot of money b/c they’re damned hard to find.

Now that I’ve ‘reassembled’ this one I’d bet it would pass anybody’s inspection, so I want to show pics with SN (50145). That way WACA members will know it’s a “parts gun” if it sells after I’m dead.

Lou, I think this is a really great idea.  Perhaps a dedicated thread where we can post the serial numbers known pieced together guns, whether they are our own, or even the fake .250 Savage discussed above.

I have been wanting to build out my .300 H&H bull barrel into a complete and correct rifle, but was wondering how to definitively declare it as a built-up gun.  A permanent thread where people could make this disclosure would be a great service to collectors.

Thanks again, 

Justin

Would some of the experts here care to list the 5 biggest problems with the barrel roll mark? Big help to the membership rather than just saying it is horrible. It looks to be pantographed rather than roll marked for starters.

CJS57 said
Would some of the experts here care to list the 5 biggest problems with the barrel roll mark? Big help to the membership rather than just saying it is horrible. It looks to be pantographed rather than roll marked for starters.  

There are more knowledgeable experts on these boards, but here is what I see:

1. The barrel stamp appears to be engraved, rather than struck with a roll-die.  Instead of very crisp lettering struck with a “V” shape impression into the barrel metal, the inside of the letters appear flat and I believe I can see lines from engraving.
2. The fonts are wrong.  Although some variation in roll stamps occurred over the years, the fonts remained very consistent.  In this case, the font is wrong for the word “FEATHERWEIGHT”.  As mentioned above, the font looks more like what was used on a post-64 Fwt rifle.  This rifle has heavy (bold) lettering, where Winchester used very thin lettering for the word FEATHERWEIGHT
3. The lettering size is wrong.  Both the “MODEL 70” and “250 SAVAGE” marks are too large.
4. The stamp is too low.  Perhaps this is a byproduct of parts of the stamp being too large, but real barrel stamps do not disappear down under the stock.

I don’t have a number 5 for you, but I noticed this morning the auction has been ended early.  Perhaps the seller (or perhaps Gunbroker) realized the rifle was a fake and decided it needed to come down.  Whatever the reason, some poor sap has been spared spending at least $4,500 on a gun with no real value!

I hope that helps, 

Justin

Tedk said
Additionally, the caliber designation on all legit pre64’s that I’ve seen is 250-3000 SAV.  

^^This should have been #1.  Tedk is absolutely correct about this.