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April 13, 2021
1:53 am
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Unfortunately, about all I can tell you about a model 70 is that I really want one. Wink

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Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886

April 13, 2021
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Kevin Jones said
About all I can tell you about a model 70 is that I really want one. Wink  

Do it–you won’t be sorry.  Just forget about the rare calibers.  What’s better (for most hunting) than a common .30-06?  Best all-round cartridge of all time.

April 13, 2021
3:27 am
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clarence said

Do it–you won’t be sorry.  Just forget about the rare calibers.  What’s better (for most hunting) than a common .30-06?  Best all-round cartridge of all time.  

That’s along the lines I was thinking. Not so much about rarity, but 100% correct and 90+% condition. 

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Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886

April 14, 2021
3:30 am
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Kevin Jones said

That’s along the lines I was thinking. Not so much about rarity, but 100% correct and 90+% condition.   

Yes, I’d like a pre-64 as I have hunted quite a bit with post-64’s including an exceptional SG. Quite honestly the pre-64’s scare me more than first-gen Colts. I simply don’t know enough about them to spend the money it takes to get a good, correct example. 

 

Mike

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April 14, 2021
2:37 pm
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TXGunNut said

Yes, I’d like a pre-64 as I have hunted quite a bit with post-64’s including an exceptional SG. Quite honestly the pre-64’s scare me more than first-gen Colts. I simply don’t know enough about them to spend the money it takes to get a good, correct example. 

 

Mike  

Nobody is faking plain-Jane .30-06 70s, & there are plenty of them out there.

April 14, 2021
7:31 pm
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clarence said

Nobody is faking plain-Jane .30-06 70s, & there are plenty of them out there.  

I agree – but many have been altered or modified – not for the purpose of fakery.

April 14, 2021
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steve004 said

I agree – but many have been altered or modified – not for the purpose of fakery.  

Perhaps, but that should be easy to spot, knowing correct brl. length & a few other very basic things, like when the bridge was tapped for scope mounts (which should have happened with ser. no. 1).  In fact, I’d look for an early one that had been tapped, as the price should be lower, & who wants to shoot an un-scoped 70?

I wouldn’t even worry about buying a “fake” Super Grade.  If it has the correct stock & floor-plate, who can prove it’s “wrong”?

April 14, 2021
10:25 pm
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I hate contributing to the hijacking pf Captain Rick’s post, but my knowledge of M70s ends with 1964.  Maybe iskra (or some others) know something that will help the OP.  John (iskra) knows quite a lot about the later rifles. Laugh

Kevin-

I know from your prior WACA posts that you’re a guy who collects QUALITY stuff (and does his homework)…  Kudos!!!

IMHO…  The one pre-64 M70 to have if you’re having only one (further apologies, this time to the old Schaefer beer commercials, i.e. “the one beer to have when you’re having more than one”…) would be a pre-war standard grade rifle in 30 GOV’T’06. I’m so fond of these that I have three, a type I-1, I-2 and I-3.  I still don’t have a type I-4 (in 30 GOV’T’06) b/c I so far haven’t yet found the right one at the right time.  I take that back… Wink I have a type I-4 in that chambering but it’s an 80-90% gun, not a museum piece…

I think you’d want all original finishes, no aftermarket alterations, high condition.  Best of the best would be a type I-1 (squared magazine release button, Carbonum blued receiver, no pin in bolt sleeve), since this is the version depicted in the introductory M70 brochure (get that brochure too!!!).  S/N would be likely be below 5000.  These turn up occasionally, but as you said you need to know what you’re looking at.  Too many “restored” guns out there!!!   The good ones are out there, but if you’re uncertain then by all means get some “help”!!! Expect to pay about $2800 for a pre-war ’06 standard if it’s legit, your kind of condition, and in the hands of a dealer…

If you are going to shoot it and need a scope, just get a Stith “Install-It-Yourself” or “Quick-Easy-Detachable” (QED) scope mount.  I disagree (a little) with Clarence, in that I don’t think that it was a blunder for Winchester to not D&T the receiver bridge in 1936-37.  Most consumers of the day did not trust the rickety/unreliable/expensive telescopic sights available at the time, so why cater to the minority???  True that by the early 1940s, scopes had gained popularity and maybe Winchester was not “forward thinking” enough to D&T the bridge before 1946…  But they did respond to market demand (just maybe a little slow)…

Caveats aside, please do join the M70 addict bunch!!!  Once you’ve had one, you’ll want another…. Wink

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Best,

Lou

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WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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April 14, 2021
11:58 pm
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Louis Luttrell said
  Most consumers of the day did not trust the rickety/unreliable/expensive telescopic sights available at the time, so why cater to the minority???

It’s true scopes were relatively expensive in the ’30s, but so was the Model 70, compared to other bolt-actions like Savage’s Model 20.  But rickety & unreliable?  Come on, Lou!  The ’32 Stoeger’s offered eight models by Zeiss & Hensoldt of battle-proven (in the trenches of WWI) reliability!  Stoeger specialized in the best German & Austrian imports, but US-made (& cheaper) Noskes, Unertls, Belding & Mulls of quality not much inferior were also available before the 70 was introduced, & the Lyman Alaskan (no better low-power scope to this day) by 1939.  Winchester’s management couldn’t (reasonably) plead ignorance.

April 15, 2021
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Captain Rick said
This is crazy. Now this thread is drifting off into optics. Can’t anybody start their own threads without hijacking other peoples?  

Sorry Rick, I will take the blame here as my initial post, without being my intention, veered your thread down the wrong path. 

I apologize and thank you at the same time as I did pick up some very good info and advice on possibly finding just the right M70 for me. 

Again, Sorry! 

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Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886

April 15, 2021
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Captain Rick said
This is crazy. Now this thread is drifting off into optics. Can’t anybody start their own threads without hijacking other peoples?  

My friend, no one is willfully withholding information from you.  If the facts you seek were known to those reading your first post, they would have been divulged without delay, but evidently no one here has the answers, inc. even our resident 70 expert, Lou. 

April 15, 2021
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Captain Rick said
This is all very interesting but I was hoping I could get some information on my gun………which is the reason I started this thread. I’m getting the feeling that this forum is more pre 64 than all inclusive.  

Actually, it is primarily for pre-1964 production Winchesters (see – About | Winchester Collector). 

While it is undoubtedly a fine rifle, technically speaking your Model 70 is not even a true “Winchester”.  Instead, it was most likely manufactured by the U.S. Repeating Arms Company (U.S.R.A.Co.), or by Fabrique Nationale (FN)in Columbia, SC or in Portugal.

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April 15, 2021
1:19 am
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Most, “collectors” focus on older vs. newer items.  We’re no different here.

April 15, 2021
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Captain Rick said
Since there seems to be such a great interest in pre 64 model 70’s, perhaps the forum moderator should break off these posts into a separate thread?  

Louis Luttrell said
I hate contributing to the hijacking pf Captain Rick’s post, but my knowledge of M70s ends with 1964.  Maybe iskra (or some others) know something that will help the OP.  John (iskra) knows quite a lot about the later rifles. Laugh

Kevin-

I know from your prior WACA posts that you’re a guy who collects QUALITY stuff (and does his homework)…  Kudos!!!

IMHO…  The one pre-64 M70 to have if you’re having only one (further apologies, this time to the old Schaefer beer commercials, i.e. “the one beer to have when you’re having more than one”…) would be a pre-war standard grade rifle in 30 GOV’T’06. I’m so fond of these that I have three, a type I-1, I-2 and I-3.  I still don’t have a type I-4 (in 30 GOV’T’06) b/c I so far haven’t yet found the right one at the right time.  I take that back… Wink I have a type I-4 in that chambering but it’s an 80-90% gun, not a museum piece…

I think you’d want all original finishes, no aftermarket alterations, high condition.  Best of the best would be a type I-1 (squared magazine release button, Carbonum blued receiver, no pin in bolt sleeve), since this is the version depicted in the introductory M70 brochure (get that brochure too!!!).  S/N would be likely be below 5000.  These turn up occasionally, but as you said you need to know what you’re looking at.  Too many “restored” guns out there!!!   The good ones are out there, but if you’re uncertain then by all means get some “help”!!! Expect to pay about $2800 for a pre-war ’06 standard if it’s legit, your kind of condition, and in the hands of a dealer…

If you are going to shoot it and need a scope, just get a Stith “Install-It-Yourself” or “Quick-Easy-Detachable” (QED) scope mount.  I disagree (a little) with Clarence, in that I don’t think that it was a blunder for Winchester to not D&T the receiver bridge in 1936-37.  Most consumers of the day did not trust the rickety/unreliable/expensive telescopic sights available at the time, so why cater to the minority???  True that by the early 1940s, scopes had gained popularity and maybe Winchester was not “forward thinking” enough to D&T the bridge before 1946…  But they did respond to market demand (just maybe a little slow)…

Caveats aside, please do join the M70 addict bunch!!!  Once you’ve had one, you’ll want another…. Wink

Type-I-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Best,

Lou  

THANKS Lou, GREAT Info. Just want I need. 

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Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886

April 15, 2021
2:36 am
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Sorry to disappoint you, Rick. Most of us have other guns but we come here primarily to read and write about pre-64 Winchesters. If you would have taken the time to learn that maybe you wouldn’t have gotten your feelings hurt. If you’d like to learn about pre-64 Winchesters stick around and we’ll have a good time, I promise!

 

Mike

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April 15, 2021
3:07 am
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Hi Clarence-

Hate to continue to steer this “hijacked” boat away from its original course, but I think the OP’s beef has been kicked up a notch…  So here goes…

Here’s my take (see if you agree/disagree)…  The M70 (as an improvement on the M54) was in the works before ’34 and pretty much approved by ’35 per Houze’s book on early Winchester bolt actions.  At the time, there were indeed a few (mostly Zeiss and hand made Noske) low power telescopic sights that would have been useful to the average “Joe deer hunter” who didn’t shoot Wimbledon Cup matches on weekends with his ’06 standard rifle.  But these avant garde optics were costly (per your own Shooter’s Bible’s) and the Lyman/Weaver scopes that made low power hunting scopes (leaky as they were) affordable and practical were not yet in the cards.  Lyman didn’t etch the words “ALL WEATHER” onto the adjustment turret of their improved Alaskan scopes b/c the earlier ones were just as good, did they?

So I do not think that Winchester (hidebound a company as it was…) was necessarily wrong in approving an original M70 design that was not readily compatible with top mounted low power rifle scopes.  By the early 1940s, I’d agree with you that the handwriting was “on the wall” and a design change was needed.  Then that pesky thing called WWII kind of got in the way…  So it took them until ’46 to to what might have been an obvious business decision back in ’41 or ’42…  Just my take…

FWIW… When it comes to bad business decisions, remember these Olin guys were the ones who thought that the 35 REM and 300 SAVAGE chamberings would be big sellers in the M70 (as we’ve previously shown in documents on this forum).  No business is perfect!!!  Not then and certainly not now!!!

Best,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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April 15, 2021
4:33 am
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Louis Luttrell said
But these avant garde optics were costly (per your own Shooter’s Bible’s) and the Lyman/Weaver scopes that made low power hunting scopes (leaky as they were) affordable and practical were not yet in the cards. 
 

Lou, Acquire a copy of this 1911 catalog (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=19850047173&cm_sp=SEARCHREC-_-WIDGET-L-_-BDP-R&searchurl=kn%3DArms%2Bof%2Bthe%2BWorld%2B1911%26sortby%3D17), & then ask yourself whether “avant-garde” was by the mid-’30s an appropriate term to apply to the scopes to which I was referring.

Price of a standard 70 in ’39 (I have no earlier price reference) was $61, price of the cheapest Unertl in same catalog was $35, cheapest Noske, $40, but the famous 330 Weaver only $27. Just not reasonable to imply buyers of 70s “couldn’t afford a scope.”

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