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hedley lamarr said
In my last post I said “We don’t have to agree and you don’t have to convince me either”. After reading that again I think my tone could be read as angry or dismissive there. I did not intend it to be read that way.
No, I was not offended. No worries!
At this point, I still cannot prove one way or another that the markings are spurious. Without definitive proof, they remain questionable. I also know which way I am leaning with regards to the legitimacy of the markings, but definitive proof would make this quickly irrelevant.
So, then, what is the value of this firearm (in my opinion)? I would say, as is, with the condition this firearm is in, without railroad markings, easily at least $2500, and probably $2700 is reasonable. If the markings are in doubt, not worth that, as it becomes an original gun that is defaced, and not worth that kind of money, which is why I did not purchase this gun. With documentation as a true railroad gun, easily double that figure. This was proven by the sale price achieved on Gunbroker recently. Obviously, at that price, it IS believed to be a true railroad gun. And, maybe it is!
So, I don’t mean to denigrate someone’s Winchester, but merely question the facts, before being able to definitively state this gun is either 100% authentic, or has faked markings.
Boy, sometimes the RR security were heavily armed. 
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
January 26, 2011
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Just to be transparent, I was one of the bidders on this rifle, but only bid about half of what it went for. I was interested in it because I don’t currently have a higher condition ’92 in my collection and the “possible” railroad connection was interesting to me. I think what Brad was trying to point out was the fact that the rifle cannot be proven either way, (or at least hasn’t been so far). Obviously I wouldn’t call it a fake or I sure wouldn’t have bid on it.
Also, I don’t think the markings detract from the rifle until you can prove it to be faked. Until then, at least in my opinion, it adds a little flavor to an otherwise ordinary and less desirable 32 cal. ’92 other than the condition. Good discussion fellows, always interesting to hear everyone’s opinions, even if we don’t all agree. That’s why I like this forum better than most others, most of the time, everyone can stay civil and agree to disagree.
~Gary~
Personally I don’t have a problem with the markings, Yes, I think that they are probably legitimate.
In the military, we bought a lot of “Commercial off the Shelf” (COTS) stuff, this can range from toilet paper to vehicles or even buildings. A requirement for durable/non-expendable COTS stuff is that it must be permantly marked as US Government property.
Generally this is done with whatever the unit has on hand, normally an electric engraver type pencil: $14 at Wal Mart. I have seen equipment from very expensive dive watches, to vehicles, weapons all the way up to multimillion dollar captured aircraft marked in this manner. The U.S. Army is a lot bigger than the C&P RR was, we didn’t have special custom made stamps, still don’t.
I imagine a telegram in 19xx going out:
“//All stations servicing Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad are authorized to purchase four rifles and one box of ammunition per rifle for each station//Rifles will be marked with C&P R.R. on at least three clearly visible locations//purchase of said rifles and ammunition will be billed to C&P R.R. account//etc…///end//
Guy in Podunk PA goes to the local hardware/feed/grocery/ gas station and buys four rifles, then asks to borrow some stamps so that he can mark them, or takes them to the local blacksmith for marking.
The individual stamps don’t bother me either. I have an “S.F.P.D.” marked 94 and each letter and period was stamped individually. I also have a WWI 1894 spruce gun with the “US” stamped with individual stamps. If the San Francisco Police Department or the U.S. military didn’t have single stamps made up to mark their property, I doubt the railroads did either.
Don
Vince said
Boy, sometimes the RR security were heavily armed.
In the first photo, I don’t think the gentleman in the second row cared much for the fellow in the front row. I wonder if that gun was loaded…
deerhunter said
The individual stamps don’t bother me either. I have an “S.F.P.D.” marked 94 and each letter and period was stamped individually. I also have a WWI 1894 spruce gun with the “US” stamped with individual stamps. If the San Francisco Police Department or the U.S. military didn’t have single stamps made up to mark their property, I doubt the railroads did either.
Don
My “S.F.P.D.” model 94 carbine is marked with individual letters as well.
Al
There is something here that most of you appear to have wrong… the stamped “C&P R.R.” marking on the subject Model 1892 Sporting Rifle was not stamped one character at a time. Instead, it was a accomplished with a single stroke of the hammer using a single tool (die) with all characters fixed on it. The stamped marking on the left barrel flat clearly supports my stated belief. If you look closely at it, all of the characters have only the upper half of the letters impressed into the steel… the die stamp was not held flat/flush to the barrel when it was struck, resulting in all five characters being partially stamped. The odds of that happening if each character was individually stamped would be astronomically high. The stamped marking on the top barrel flat is the result of the die bouncing (moving slightly) afer the first strike, and being struck a second time (double strike). The stamped marking on the right barrel flat is the only time the person got it right when he struck the die.
When this topic was first posted, I stated that the markings were “odd”, but never stated or insinuated that they were fake. The reason I thought they were odd is because multiple property markings are usually stamped in disassociated locations (e.g. on the butt stock, on the butt plate tang, on the receiver frame, on the barrel, or on the forend stock. It is not common or usual to find a property marking stamped on the barrel right next to one another. However, my theory is the person who did the marking messed up the first attempt (on the left barrel flat), then attempted to retry marking it cleanly on the top flat (and messed it up with the double strike), and then moved to the right flat and the made the proverb “the third time’s a charm” a true event.
My nickle’s worth
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Ok, so we are in violent agreement that those are not Winchester factory markings, and that they were not very well done.
Now that we agree on those two pieces, the only outstanding question is who put the markings on the rifle and why.
On one side, we have those who believe the intent was to defraud and that the C&P RR marking will somehow enhance the value of the rifle.
On the other side, we have those that believe it was simply a railroad company marking its property.
For those that believe it was an attempt to increase the value of the rifle… I don’t see it.
For the most part, any non-factory markings are usually a detractor as far as collectors go, yes, some marking will command a premium: Wells Fargo, Browning Bros etc. But for the most part, it detracts from the price.
There’s a bunch that turn their noses up at British proofed guns, I personally think that they are cool, some guy with his 1876 in 50-95 hunting tigers in India, but I digress.
Googling the Cumberland and Pennsylvania Railroad, looks like it was a pretty obscure railroad; regional, operating primarily in Maryland hauling coal. So it clearly doesn’t have the name recognition of the Union Pacific railroad, or even the Reading Railroad of the Monopoly board game fame.
Hard to believe that there would be a big collector market for C&P RR marked stuff. But maybe I’m wrong.
Personally, I think that it was marked for the RR and the guy kept marking it till he got it right, heck, it wasn’t his gun.
Yes, it is enjoyable to be part of a forum where we can all respectably and civilly agree to disagree. Again, I have not ruled out or in that these markings are fake or original. To me, if fake, it detracts from the value, as it must be explained or justified. If original, but not factory, it still adds to the value, as it is part of the history. Indeed, ANYTHING railroad-related is highly collectible! I was at a local auction two years ago and saw items of a defunct freight railway bring sky high prices, including a large scrapbook that went for $13,000!!! This was the Lehigh Valley Railroad, not exactly a household name. So, this is a pecuniary reason to apply fake markings to a firearm.
Oh, I forgot to ask: Bert, as you are amongst the most knowledgeable individuals in the world when it comes to Winchesters, what is your honest opinion with regards to this firearm? Do you think it truly has a railroad connection in its past, or not?
Bert H. said
There is something here that most of you appear to have wrong… the stamped “C&P R.R.” marking on the subject Model 1892 Sporting Rifle was not stamped one character at a time. Instead, it was a accomplished with a single stroke of the hammer using a single tool (die) with all characters fixed on it. The stamped marking on the left barrel flat clearly supports my stated belief. If you look closely at it, all of the characters have only the upper half of the letters impressed into the steel… the die stamp was not held flat/flush to the barrel when it was struck, resulting in all five characters being partially stamped. The odds of that happening if each character was individually stamped would be astronomically high. The stamped marking on the top barrel flat is the result of the die bouncing (moving slightly) afer the first strike, and being struck a second time (double strike). The stamped marking on the right barrel flat is the only time the person got it right when he struck the die.
When this topic was first posted, I stated that the markings were “odd”, but never stated or insinuated that they were fake. The reason I thought they were odd is because multiple property markings are usually stamped in disassociated locations (e.g. on the butt stock, on the butt plate tang, on the receiver frame, on the barrel, or on the forend stock. It is not common or usual to find a property marking stamped on the barrel right next to one another. However, my theory is the person who did the marking messed up the first attempt (on the left barrel flat), then attempted to retry marking it cleanly on the top flat (and messed it up with the double strike), and then moved to the right flat and the made the proverb “the third time’s a charm” a true event.
My nickle’s worth
Bert
Bert,
You’re right, they are not individual letters.
Al
I think Berts assessment is accurate and most likely
I did a fair bit of hand stamping as a toolmaker and was never great at it. I would say its a lot harder than most would think to hold the stamp at the precise position , squarely and in line , spaced evenly , and hit the stamp squarely with the hammer , straight to the metal surface,with significant force to look correct ,( a well practiced engravers coordination would help)
and really difficult to line up the stamp again in the indent to strike again to correct it, but often necessary
Hence some of the really bad caliber re-stampings seen
Phil
mrcvs said
Oh, I forgot to ask: Bert, as you are amongst the most knowledgeable individuals in the world when it comes to Winchesters, what is your honest opinion with regards to this firearm? Do you think it truly has a railroad connection in its past, or not?
I honestly do not know if it does, or does not, have a connection to the C&P Rail Road. The odds in my mind are 50/50. The only thing that I am reasonably sure of, is that Winchester did not mark it. Now, if you were to ask me if I would place any premium on it, my answer is a definite No.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Sometimes its best to go to the source to get your answers. I know the seller who posted the write-up on the rifle on his site (Antique Arms Inc.) and discussed this topic with him two weeks ago. Needless to say he was none too happy about one of his guns getting thrashed in a public forum. I got the full story behind the rifle he listed and I have no reason to believe its not original.
And regarding the rifle versus a carbine, does it hurt any more being shot gut with one or the other or one caliber versus the next? Its foolhardy to try to impose our views of what would have been a better choice of weapon, or caliber, for one application or the other, not knowing its original intended purpose or its owner(s). Sometimes it simply is what it is–maybe out of necessity, out of preference, or a myriad of other reasons for how it came to be. The fact that it was once listed for $3000 and didnt sell, then was later sold for twice that amount doesnt amount to a hill of beans–you just have two people that wanted it more at one given point in time in the right forum.
Its good to ask questions, get feedback and answers, and form an opinion, and educate ourselves, but I dont see the need to beat people over the head because you think they are a crook, as has become an all too often theme here. Sure, sometimes these sellers are scoundrels but all too often they are your common dealer or seller that barely knows what end of the barrel the bullet exits and doesnt care so long as the gun works. As a collector you have to realize that guns as well as sellers come in all shapes and sizes and that all buyers are not collectors. Pull up the granny panties and accept the fact that the good, the bad, and the ugly will always exist in the world of collecting and its your responsibility as a collector to know the difference. And when in doubt—pass to the next gem that catches your eye.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown said
Sometimes its best to go to the source to get your answers. I know the seller who posted the write-up on the rifle on his site (Antique Arms Inc.) and discussed this topic with him two weeks ago. Needless to say he was none too happy about one of his guns getting thrashed in a public forum. I got the full story behind the rifle he listed and I have no reason to believe its not original.
And regarding the rifle versus a carbine, does it hurt any more being shot gut with one or the other or one caliber versus the next? Its foolhardy to try to impose our views of what would have been a better choice of weapon, or caliber, for one application or the other, not knowing its original intended purpose or its owner(s). Sometimes it simply is what it is–maybe out of necessity, out of preference, or a myriad of other reasons for how it came to be. The fact that it was once listed for $3000 and didnt sell, then was later sold for twice that amount doesnt amount to a hill of beans–you just have two people that wanted it more at one given point in time in the right forum.
Its good to ask questions, get feedback and answers, and form an opinion, and educate ourselves, but I dont see the need to beat people over the head because you think they are a crook, as has become an all too often theme here. Sure, sometimes these sellers are scoundrels but all too often they are your common dealer or seller that barely knows what end of the barrel the bullet exits and doesnt care so long as the gun works. As a collector you have to realize that guns as well as sellers come in all shapes and sizes and that all buyers are not collectors. Pull up the granny panties and accept the fact that the good, the bad, and the ugly will always exist in the world of collecting and its your responsibility as a collector to know the difference. And when in doubt—pass to the next gem that catches your eye.
Well said….Amen.
Bill
Bert H. said
mrcvs said
Oh, I forgot to ask: Bert, as you are amongst the most knowledgeable individuals in the world when it comes to Winchesters, what is your honest opinion with regards to this firearm? Do you think it truly has a railroad connection in its past, or not?
I honestly do not know if it does, or does not, have a connection to the C&P Rail Road. The odds in my mind are 50/50. The only thing that I am reasonably sure of, is that Winchester did not mark it. Now, if you were to ask me if I would place any premium on it, my answer is a definite No.
Bert
Much thanks, Bert! The odds in my mind “lean” on one direction more than the other direction, but not by much. So, 50/50 is spot on, if you ask me!
Again, thanks!
I have two pieces of Cumberland and Pennsylvania Railroad correspondence regarding the sale of several Winchester rifles (four 32cal and one 38cal). I very much doubt that the C&PRR owned any more than 5 rifles, so all may be documented in this correspondence.
Just what is the serial number of the rifle in question here?
Ted said
I have two pieces of Cumberland and Pennsylvania Railroad correspondence regarding the sale of several Winchester rifles (four 32cal and one 38cal). I very much doubt that the C&PRR owned any more than 5 rifles, so all may be documented in this correspondence.Just what is the serial number of the rifle in question here?
It’s in the 27,000 range as stated here:
http://www.mountsavagehistoricalsociety.org/c&p/c&p%20rifle/railroad%20rifle.htm
Al
OK. The point is–the C&PRR stamp on the subject rifle is probably authentic, if it’s one of the following serial numbers. The C&PRR documents I have (on C&PRR letterhead, dated in Sept 1944, and signed by the General Manager), document their ownership of rifles with serial numbers 20604, 27448, 35210, 35236 (32 cal), and 454649-B (38 cal). If anyone is interested in these documents (like maybe the current owner), I can be contacted thru admin.
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