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twobit said
CVS,
That is a very nice looking rifle but I have never seen a similar marked gun. It is interesting that a supposed Mail protection rifle that is a 32 WCF and not a 44 WCF. In addition it is commonly assumed that most protection guns were carbines and not OB sporting rifles. Any chance anybody got the full serial number of the rifle so I can add it into my research?
Thanks,
Michael
mrcvs said
See the following:
http://www.mountsavagehistoricalsociety.org/c&p/c&p%20rifle/railroad%20rifle.htm
Note markings C.&P.R.R., which may, or may not, signify the Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad.
Legitimately marked, or not? I have not seen these markings before, which, of course, does not mean a whole lot.
Guess what I saw at a local gun show today? The C&P RR model 92 in question here? SN 27448. Nice looking gun with a lot of original finish. What’s the thoughts on the railroad stampings on the barrel?
Al
I like this piece and would vote with the side that says it’s an original R.R. item. I can’t quite reconcile the caliber and the fact that it is a rifle vs. a carbine but I can come up with several alternative scenarios that would justify that combination:
- Rifle used near populated area for rodent or feral critter control. I have seen a Model 1892 rifle in this caliber with provision for Maxim silencer mounting and scoped that was owned by a local sheriff for such a purpose (the seller actually had the silencer under the table that went along with the sale.
- Use at R.R. owned hunting camp compound for entertaining customers/shippers shooting targets or say wild pigs.
- If there were 2 identically marked pieces, that would tend to support authenticity
I can’t imagine anyone adding the stamps to a nice rifle thinking it would in any way enhance the value……… I certainly would have offered the purchase price and been happy to own it!
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
mrcvs said
See the following:
http://www.mountsavagehistoricalsociety.org/c&p/c&p%20rifle/railroad%20rifle.htm
Note markings C.&P.R.R., which may, or may not, signify the Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad.
Legitimately marked, or not? I have not seen these markings before, which, of course, does not mean a whole lot.
I like the description shown at the posted link at this time, i.e. “This is an early Model 1892 rifle that appears to have once been the property of the Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad.” Emphasis on appears in that I see nothing that would cause me concern to believe otherwise for now.
James
Yes, emphasis on “appears”. I don’t think this was an original railroad gun.
mrcvs said
Yes, emphasis on “appears”. I don’t think this was an original railroad gun.
You’re entitled to your opinion.
James
I found this link to the Mount Savage Historical Society web site. The C&P RR is really old and operated in a very localized area. see below. Also, they have a link to the rifle in question.
http://www.mountsavagehistoricalsociety.org/c&p/c&p%20shop.htm
The Mount Savage Rail Road operation was acquired by the Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad in January 1854. This acquisition included the motive power, rolling stock, 14.9 miles of track from Borden to Cumberland, and the Canal Wharf. Thus, the Mount Savage railroad disappeared as a separate corporate entity, but became the basis for the next generation of short line railroads of Allegany County, Maryland, and a direct ancestor of present-day CSX Transportation.
Al
Back in January I had my hands on this 1892 at a local gun show here in Western PA. The guy was asking $2,950 for it, but I passed on it. I thought it would be interesting to note that it sold on Gun Broker for over $6,000 with 52 bids. The guy who had it must’ve sold it somewhere along the way to the person who sold it on Gun Broker.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=548784165
AMAZING!!! Especially since this gun was for sale for a LONG time for under $3,000. At least those locally in Pennsylvania were aware that this was a fake, hence why it did not sell. At least two folks nationally (the successful bidder and the unsuccessful runner-up) were not aware that the markings are spurious. I passed on purchasing this Model 1892 when presented before me several times at my local show for well over a year.
mrcvs said
AMAZING!!! Especially since this gun was for sale for a LONG time for under $3,000. At least those locally in Pennsylvania were aware that this was a fake, hence why it did not sell. At least two folks nationally (the successful bidder and the unsuccessful runner-up) were not aware that the markings are spurious. I passed on purchasing this Model 1892 when presented before me several times at my local show for well over a year.
I was wondering if there were some other things you noticed up close about the rifle, besides the markings, that have led you to call it a fake. I have read through the thread, but I could have missed something.
Thanks,
Brad
No, just the markings are fake. Otherwise, the gun is honest, original with condition.
This last winter I was involved in a conversation with a long-time Winchester collector about foreign stamped guns. A very knowledgeable person. Another collector involved in the discussion asked the gentleman if he was a WACA member. It took some work, but eventually he said he was turned off of our club because of something he had read on our forum last year about a railroad marked gun, and he had owned one marked the same, that’s authenticity was being questioned. I had forgot about that until today when I saw this thread and realized it was the one he was talking about.
A great collector, whose friendship I have grown to appreciate very much, once paraphrased to me something George Madis had told him. In effect: it is bad to say a wrong gun was “right”, but a mortal sin to condemn a good gun. I have a Browning Bros. marked gun that is 100% legit. Beyond that I know very little about post-factory stamping. For the sake of learning more about these particular markings, I would ask how you are so sure the stamping is fake?
Thanks,
Brad
Hi,
This is a bit off the subject of RR markings . I have a very early ’73 carbine with 2 numbers stamped on the bottom of the receiver near the barrel. Was this RR marking or a mine, or… It is Indian used. I once saw an early ’73 carbine that was stamped “refinished” from the factory. Who knows what the future research will unveil. Thanks to all for the research.
Walter
hedley lamarr said
For the sake of learning more about these particular markings, I would ask how you are so sure the stamping is fake?
Well, I cannot say 100% for sure that the markings are fake, but, from the other posts in this thread, there is more than enough doubt to question the authenticity of these markings. Even Bert, who is amongst the most knowledgeable folks on the planet when it comes to Winchesters, called the markings “odd”. IF you have a gun such as this one with condition and a railroad history priced under $3,000, it, without question, if authentic and there was not doubt as to its authenticity, would have been bought without hesitation at the first show it was presented at, early in the first morning of that show, if not sooner.
There just is too much doubt in the Winchester collecting community to regard this firearm as 100% correct.
Also, if a true railroad gun, I would expect it to be a carbine and not a rifle, and in .44-40. This does not mean, by any means, that a railroad might not own a rifle in .32-20, but I would think that this would be an odd configuration to own, relative to other choices.
When I was looking at the gun back in January at the local gun show, I remember reading the posts on this forum about a C&PR.R. model 1892. I wasn’t sure it was the gun in question until I got home. Anyway, I went back and copied an excerpt out of the original sellers (Antique Arms) description from the beginning of this post. see below:
“Furthermore, at the time I purchased it, it was one of a pair of rifles with this marking…both rifles were identical, same caliber, same condition, same year production, and had “C. & P. R.R.” stamped on the barrels. Neither rifle appeared to have had much use either showing only storage wear and perfect bores. The owner got these both from the same estate and mentioned they once belonged to the Cumberland and Pittsburgh Rail Road. I believe however that what he probably meant was the Cumberland and Pennsylvania Rail Road. The condition of bloth rifles was indicative of ownership by a Company or Police Dept where a gun was stored but rarely used. It was probably kept in a rack or inside a Rail Car to protect US Mail or a pay roll. At any rate, this is the only I purchased at the time.”
I tend to believe C.&P .R R stampings were made by the Cumberland and Pennsylvania Rail Road. Because 1. why would anybody stamp a rifle in this manner? It’s not someones initials, no attempt was made to do a neat job, just hurry up and get it stamped. 2. In his description above, the seller states that the person he bought it from had two from the same estate and both had similar markings, and in similar condition.
Just my take.
Al
One of the concerns that pops up here is that the rifle hovered around the $3,000 mark when it should have been much higher. if genuine. Is anyone taking into consideration that it is a 32-20, not a 44-40? The smaller calibers always command a much lower price than the 44’s. Just my 2¢ worth!
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
mrcvs said
hedley lamarr said
For the sake of learning more about these particular markings, I would ask how you are so sure the stamping is fake?
Well, I cannot say 100% for sure that the markings are fake, but, from the other posts in this thread, there is more than enough doubt to question the authenticity of these markings. Even Bert, who is amongst the most knowledgeable folks on the planet when it comes to Winchesters, called the markings “odd”. IF you have a gun such as this one with condition and a railroad history priced under $3,000, it, without question, if authentic and there was not doubt as to its authenticity, would have been bought without hesitation at the first show it was presented at, early in the first morning of that show, if not sooner.
There just is too much doubt in the Winchester collecting community to regard this firearm as 100% correct.
Also, if a true railroad gun, I would expect it to be a carbine and not a rifle, and in .44-40. This does not mean, by any means, that a railroad might not own a rifle in .32-20, but I would think that this would be an odd configuration to own, relative to other choices.
I went back and read through the posts again from the top, in their entirety. I do not agree with the conclusions you have reached here and am not convinced by your argument as to why the markings are “fake”.
We don’t have to agree and you don’t need to convince me either.
Thanks,
Brad
IF truly a railroad gun in the condition this one is in, as offered for sale at under $3000, it simply would not have remained for sale that long, or long at all, if others did not have concerns. It has condition AND a connection to the railroad going for it! Until proved otherwise, which may indeed happen some day, it is just a quality 1892 to which someone applied markings to, fake, or otherwise?
hedley lamarr said
…eventually he said he was turned off of our club because of something he had read on our forum last year about a railroad marked gun, and he had owned one marked the same, that’s authenticity was being questioned.
And WHY would one NOT question the authenticity of this particular Winchester? ALL Winchesters should be subjected to the same high level of scrutiny! There simply is too much stuff out there that has been altered, with the intent to deceive, or otherwise. That is simply the problem with society today. No one wants to hear the truth, due to political correctness, etc. Well, I do! I want to know the TRUTH! If I paid through the nose for a particular Winchester, and it has problems and devalues it immensely, I want to know! Case in point: I own a Winchester 1894 in .30 WCF that looks like it walked out of the factory yesterday, and it has original Winchester factory swivel eyes, as confirmed by Bert. A thread asked where swivel eyes should be placed on the stock, and I volunteered my measurements. As it turns out, I learned that the swivel eye on the stock of my firearm is located too close to the buttplate (e.g., too far back) which STRONGLY suggests that these swivel eyes were not installed in the factory. Does it detract from value? Probably not. But, I want to know this.
Before I am accused of being pompous and arrogant, I have made mistakes. The first Winchester I ever bought was purchased as a deer gun, an 1894 in .32 Special. This carbine was purchased as it was “different”; it has a hammer that is of a style much later than those in use in 1920, when this gun was shipped. The half magazine is neat, but possibly not original, either. It has a Model 55 stock. Again, just a deer gun and bought cheaply 30 + years ago. But I want to know the TRUTH, for better or worse!
Mrcvs
In my last post I said “We don’t have to agree and you don’t have to convince me either”. After reading that again I think my tone could be read as angry or dismissive there. I did not intend it to be read that way. My meaning was that it was OK with me not being in agreement with you, or you with me.
I also believe in scrutiny. Declaring someone’s guns to be “fakes” is serious and should be done with a very high level of scrutiny. I would not tell someone that their gun was a “fake” with any certainty based on what has been presented so far in this particular situation. I think that someone who owned one of these guns as marked would read through this entire thread and may feel the same way about it. You are definitely entitled to your opinion on it, and like I said I’m not trying to change your mind
Thanks,
Brad
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