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Kevin Jones said
Great point Steve, here’s another example similar to yours. If this 1885 Highwall peep sight wasn’t listed in the letter most would just assume it was added later.
Kevin – my, that’s a wonderful M1885! And the sights letter! That surely adds to the appeal. Like my M1873 SRC, most buyers know some were shipped that way originally…
Kevin Jones said
Great point Steve, here’s another example similar to yours. If this 1885 Highwall peep sight wasn’t listed in the letter most would just assume it was added later.
Wow!! Nice rifle Kevin.
AG
Thanks Steve/AG, this 1885 has some interesting provenance since that’s kinda what we are discussing here.
Here’s a old thread on it from a few years ago. If you double click on the images it will remove the PhotoBucket banner for better viewing.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/1885-38-55-highwall-an-unexpected-pleasure/
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin your rifles are incredibly beautiful. I’d just love to own one like that!!!! Thank you for posting a picture and letter of it!
James
Kevin Jones said
Thanks Steve/AG, this 1885 has some interesting provenance since that’s kinda what we are discussing here.Here’s a old thread on it from a few years ago. If you double click on the images it will remove the PhotoBucket banner for better viewing.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/1885-38-55-highwall-an-unexpected-pleasure/
This is a great example of what collecting is all about. I had not seen the old thread and appreciated the link. I read through it and enjoyed all the information. And the condition of that Highwall! Beyond cool. Thanks again for sharing.
Thanks James and Steve!
Hurt & Miller Market purchased (8) identical 1885 rifles on the exact same order number. Assume one was for John Miller and perhaps the remaining six may have been for other employees?
Wonder is the other (7) also had silver nameplates?
If anyone ever runs across a 1885 with a silver nameplate similar to mine please let me know.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
November 7, 2015
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One benefit of being a museum member is the opportunity for searches. Search results confirm originality and may reveal some interesting features. I generally won’t request a letter on a “standard” Winchester but in some cases it does add value. If it’s an unusual piece I feel it does add value if the features on the item match the letter. One recent acquisition “letters” with an unusual barrel length, barrel weight and tang sight; I was pretty pleased to learn that. In some cases, it hurts. I have an interesting rifle that differs from the ledger in a number of ways and it’s quite obvious the ledger is in error. As has been pointed out I’ll always have to explain the discrepancy and it will likely never sell for what I feel it should.
Or, as Bert so succinctly stated; it depends.
Mike
TXGunNut said
I have an interesting rifle that differs from the ledger in a number of ways and it’s quite obvious the ledger is in error.
That’s what I’m going to say about the “special order” grips on a S&W I have; cost me $100 to find out someone at the factory dropped the ball…and I really believe that’s what happened; so now I have this expensive piece of paper that does me more harm than good if I try to sell it.
I’ve heard many a collector mention getting a factory letter in the mail and then needing to forget about it. It can be a sad scenario as in some cases, the owner is quite satisfied with their rifle. They believe it to be correct, etc. And then the letter comes and casts a cloud. Some collectors can shake this off easier than others. Many dread when it comes time to sell as they don’t like doing the whole explanation thing. I’ve no doubt errors occurred in the factory ledgers but you can’t prove that was the case with your particular piece. A letter in the mailbox can make your day. It can also spoil it.
Anything high value I do the serial number search before I purchase to confirm configuration. This doesn’t help at a gun show and on the spot, but that’s why ”I” wouldn’t buy a high value piece at a gun show without. Been too many buyers have that letter spoil their day after the sale as Steve004 said.
AG
If I’m interested in a gun I call Cody and check it out. If it doesn’t letter I keep on looking. If I buy the gun and its nice I will get the letter or if its a lesser gun I keep the phone search.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
AG said
Anything high value I do the serial number search before I purchase to confirm configuration. This doesn’t help at a gun show and on the spot, but that’s why ”I” wouldn’t buy a high value piece at a gun show without. Been too many buyers have that letter spoil their day after the sale as Steve004 said.AG
If you bring a gun in letterable range without a letters or search to a gun show you limit your ability to sell there for cash and a hand shake. To me guns are an impulse buy, if you slow the process you can lose the sale. T/R
TR said
If you bring a gun in letterable range without a letters or search to a gun show you limit your ability to sell there for cash and a hand shake. To me guns are an impulse buy, if you slow the process you can lose the sale. T/R
If you’ve been around this hobby a while it’s hard to avoid becoming suspicious. If I am at a show and see something interesting (e.g. higher dollar with non-standard features) in the letterable range and the seller says he never pursued a letter… I think he probably had….
November 7, 2015
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Another point that needs to be made is that fake letters are showing up here and there so a gun offered with a letter still needs a close examination and possibly an inquiry.
Mike
I agree, a letter can be a double edged sword, so as other’s have stated, it’s always best to check the letter or do a search prior to purchase.
And as Bert alluded to in post#2, a letter isn’t necessarily absolute, it’s just one piece of the puzzle to determining if a Winchester is correct OR NOT.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
I guess I’ve been lucky, I have never seen a fake letter. A fake letter would not be a bad deal, it would be fraud, a criminal offense. Most of my guns have been bought at major gun shows or large auction houses, places I know who I’m dealing with. If you deal with the devil you get the fork! T/R
Yeah, it’s a complicated world. Not only could a letter be fake, but the guy transferring it with the gun may not be the fraudster. He may just be passing it on. Like I said, I bought a letter just to see if it lettered the letter I had. (It did.)
I also bought a letter that showed a 38-56 but it was 40-65 as I had it. This allowed me to feel better about boring it out to 45-70. Now, you guys might have been able to tell it was not an original bbl just by looking at it. Me, not so much. Now that I look at it more closely, and with some education from this web site, I can tell it’s a different barrel but back then, I thought it looked good. Both the bbl and the rest of the gun were dark. Now I see it’s a different dark.
Anyway, letters are just another layer of fun to the history. I like them just for the hell of it.
“Puzzle” described much of collecting. Puzzles can be fun, and they can sometimes not be fun. Particularly so when all the pieces don’t fit together correctly. The factory letter is one piece of the puzzle. Many times rifles are altered – not from the configuration specified in the letter – but in other ways, such as finish, repairs etc. The more expensive, the more the risk that someone has done something. This is why I enjoy some of my lower dollar rifles. Nice even finish wear, use but no abuse, and so on can describe many an old and desirable Winchester. These pieces can be very enjoyable to hold. The stories you can hear as you hold them in your hand are usually much more interesting than what a, “safe queen” has to say. For me, “character” is a delicate thing – some hit it right on and others don’t. One man’s, “character rifle” can be another man’s junk.
Just saw an 1892 take down with upgraded wood. The forend is too short for my liking. I just emailed Cody for a worksheet. If it letters with upgraded wood I may buy it. Without the ability to check this gun out first I wouldn’t touch it. So for all of you that don’t want to use the resources at hand I thank you. Eliminates some competition.
Chuck said
Just saw an 1892 take down with upgraded wood. The forend is too short for my liking. I just emailed Cody for a worksheet. If it letters with upgraded wood I may buy it. Without the ability to check this gun out first I wouldn’t touch it. So for all of you that don’t want to use the resources at hand I thank you. Eliminates some competition.
Chuck said
Just saw an 1892 take down with upgraded wood. The forend is too short for my liking. I just emailed Cody for a worksheet. If it letters with upgraded wood I may buy it. Without the ability to check this gun out first I wouldn’t touch it. So for all of you that don’t want to use the resources at hand I thank you. Eliminates some competition.
Yes, when available, the museum consultation can be quite the asset. I am reminded that only about one-third of the ’92 production is in the letterable range.
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