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The checkering looks re-cut to me. Just wondering what others here think.
https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=4012
Thanks,
Don
Online
I agree on the checkering. I would have preferred original even if worn/smoothed.
Extra-light barrel on this one?
I disagree. The checkering looks perfectly original to me. I saved a copy of the pictures, and then increased the resolution to 400%, and I can see absolutely no signs that the checkering has been touched or recut. What I do see is a fit issue at the juncture with the receiver frame, and the chipped corner on the visible side of the stock.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Photographs, to me, suggest the condition of the checkering is too crisp relative to the condition of the gun. This is one you might need to see in person to know for sure.
Bert H. said
I disagree. The checkering looks perfectly original to me. I saved a copy of the pictures, and then increased the resolution to 400%, and I can see absolutely no signs that the checkering has been touched or recut. What I do see is a fit issue at the juncture with the receiver frame, and the chipped corner on the visible side of the stock.Bert
I believe that all of the wood, stock and forend, is not original to the gun.
The fit of the forend cap also looks a little funky….
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Ok, I see where this is going and I certainly like the collective opinions and knowledge that are coming together. To me, the checkering didn’t look quite right and added to that, the contrast between the wear on the metal (this gun surely has been used) with the fact that the checkering shows no wear at all – just didn’t add up. I no longer believe the checkering has been recut. I think the logical explanation is that the rifle has been restocked. This explains the issues with wood to metal fit as well as the pristine condition of the checkering.
Guys, hanging out here and reading has been beyond a priceless education. I personally value Berts opinion to be expertise level. But reading thread after thread is kind of depressing. Every gun posted, its authenticity is questioned… I have a safe full of 94’s that Ive bought from original owners or original owners kids. I will not be posting them here because something on them will be wrong…. Im just saying it makes me not wanna buy anymore, like all of the good original ones are gone or they dont exist.
patrick tompkins said
Guys, hanging out here and reading has been beyond a priceless education. I personally value Berts opinion to be expertise level. But reading thread after thread is kind of depressing. Every gun posted, its authenticity is questioned… I have a safe full of 94’s that Ive bought from original owners or original owners kids. I will not be posting them here because something on them will be wrong…. Im just saying it makes me not wanna buy anymore, like all of the good original ones are gone or they dont exist.
Oh, it is painful for sure. Not much out there hurts more than the truth. Also, I can attest that being wrong is not particularly pleasant either. Many a person has had their joy of ownership seriously disrupted. Bliss (e.g. often ignorant) can be pleasant and if down the line, when your relatives sell your pieces at garage sales for $25 each, what was the harm of the years of bliss you enjoyed?
Seriously, I feel for you and please don’t interpret my comments to be sarcastic. I too, would hesitate to have some of my prized pieces up for display and comment here. People here have an amazing amount of knowledge and experience. This can be a fantastic asset when you’re considering purchasing some high dollar item. But if you’ve already purchased it and it’s yours, you may find out things you really didn’t want to know. And yes, there is so much fakery out there that I too have disillusionment regarding further collecting. It’s also natural pieces get looked at with a suspicious eye as so much out there, isn’t right.
By the way, I am unable to view the photos you posted.
Patrick, Telling if a gun is original is not rocket science. Follower a few simple rules. (1) If it’s in a letterable range, does it conform to the letter. (2) All parts without a serial number can be changed, look in the books and see what’s correct in that serial number range. (3) Do all parts match in finish and fit; tang, stock, butt plate, forearm, and barrel. When Winchester made them they did. (4) Look for cracks, bulges, and repairs. A Larry Light works good in any light. (5) Find a knowledgeable expert and ask his advice while you have it on inspection period. (6) If you have any questions about any of these idems, “DON’T BUY”, there are thousands of guns for sale, don’t take a chance. (7) THERE IS NO SHORT CUT! T/R
Just a quick note in regards to the seller of this rifle…I have purchased around 6 rifles from him in the past and sent them all back but one because they were not at all as described. I finally quit bidding/buying. Be careful here!
Eagle said
Just a quick note in regards to the seller of this rifle…I have purchased around 6 rifles from him in the past and sent them all back but one because they were not at all as described. I finally quit bidding/buying. Be careful here!
That is an incredibly negative record for 1 seller. Thanks for alerting us.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
He had a seller or two in the past that was consigning refinished/redone guns and the seller knew it but allowed it anyway. I would buy one, see all the refinishing, send it back with an explanation of the problems, and it would be in the next auction described as all original. We all know that a lot of folks buying out there have no clue. To misrepresent guns not knowing is one thing. To misrepresent guns and sell them as “all original” knowingly is totally another thing in my book.
Eagle said
He had a seller or two in the past that was consigning refinished/redone guns and the seller knew it but allowed it anyway. I would buy one, see all the refinishing, send it back with an explanation of the problems, and it would be in the next auction described as all original. We all know that a lot of folks buying out there have no clue. To misrepresent guns not knowing is one thing. To misrepresent guns and sell them as “all original” knowingly is totally another thing in my book.
The trouble with that is that years down the road the unsuspecting buyer of the re-listed fake, or his heirs, will put the gun up for sale as all original and the collecting world will have an ever increasing ratio of fakes to real guns to contend with, from new fakes as well as from old faked items.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
TR said
Patrick, Telling if a gun is original is not rocket science. Follower a few simple rules. (1) If it’s in a letterable range, does it conform to the letter. (2) All parts without a serial number can be changed, look in the books and see what’s correct in that serial number range. (3) Do all parts match in finish and fit; tang, stock, butt plate, forearm, and barrel. When Winchester made them they did. (4) Look for cracks, bulges, and repairs. A Larry Light works good in any light. (5) Find a knowledgeable expert and ask his advice while you have it on inspection period. (6) If you have any questions about any of these idems, “DON’T BUY”, there are thousands of guns for sale, don’t take a chance. (7) THERE IS NO SHORT CUT! T/R
Actually, in a lot of cases it damn near is rocket science, especially when I haven’t met a person yet that does not make mistakes in their assessments, which multiplies accordingly with each evaluation they make, and gives certain guns the plague, so to speak.
Had I been lurking on a forum like this when I became interested in collecting older guns, I might very well have followed another hobby, instead I liked the approach of men like Flayderman where learning about collecting became a lot of fun. On the other hand, I might have become even more cautious due to greater knowledge and continued to collect. However, we are where we are for better or worse, so what can we do to turn things around for ourselves and also help the young’uns that might follow us, and also cure the plague that any of our guns have been diagnosed with, most especially where value is concerned, for any guns that might now be a part of a survey. These guns will be operated on by members of this forum like a team of surgeons when they eventually go up for sale…these type questions/situations should and must be addressed better than what they are today.
Whatever we do to this end in a positive or negative light will be recognized by the collecting community accordingly, and one of the things that is passing us by like gangbusters has to do with all too many guns, and I do mean in droves, that bring “big bucks” that are not factory original be it in a minor or major way – this certainly looks to be an unstoppable trend in a major way. One thing that could be done here is for anyone making a post about such guns should also ask for or place a dollar value range on it or remain silent…period, even if the gun is a total fake from a well known faker. Such a personal policy will also help people learn, help those who end up owning the gun(s) being discussed better understand the market value of same, and should go far in bringing a great deal of increased discussion, knowledge and like enjoyment to collecting, be the guns original or not.
Great post Patrick…thank you.
James
“Actually, in a lot of cases it damn near is rocket science, especially when I haven’t met a person yet that does not make mistakes in their assessments….”
This was my reaction as well. When one considers the level of sophistication of some of the fakery, it’s a real jungle out there. And let’s say for example, you’re buying the rifle because it has a museum letter that confirms all features… well, you better call the museum yourself and make sure someone didn’t do a darn nice job of faking the letter. And maybe the letter isn’t a fake, and the rifle matches the letter… but wait, someone swapped the lower tang out!
I was musing today that I’m, “lucky” I didn’t have much money available to me during my active years of collecting. Because I had no choice but to buy lower grade stuff, I happened into the scenario where most everything I bought was right. Had I been, “unlucky” to have had some real money to work with, I would have surely purchased many pieces that would not hold up under knowledgeable scrutiny.
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