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Hi Bert, this is one of two with that feature, both unserialized. This one is our catalog number 1988.8.432 and Winchester inventory number 489. The other is Winchester number 490. They were both examples for a William Mason patent #487,487. https://patents.google.com/patent/US487487A/en?oq=us487487
Daniel Michael said
Hi Bert, this is one of two with that feature, both unserialized. This one is our catalog number 1988.8.432 and Winchester inventory number 489. The other is Winchester number 490. They were both examples for a William Mason patent #487,487. https://patents.google.com/patent/US487487A/en?oq=us487487
Awesome!
Thanks for the information. I must have missed viewing this gun in the CFM displays? I would really like to see one (or both) of the guns during my trip to Cody next year for the WACA show.
On a related topic, do you have the patent information for the Model 1897 shotguns? Specifically the last two patents (December 25 1906 and July 5 1910)?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Remind me ahead of the show next year and we can make that happen.
The patent numbers must be referenced somewhere in the records but I don’t have them handy. There is a notation document on the 1897s of all the changes between the alphabetized variations. It might be with that.
Daniel Michael said
The patent numbers must be referenced somewhere in the records but I don’t have them handy. There is a notation document on the 1897s of all the changes between the alphabetized variations. It might be with that.
Dan,
I believe that I have a copy of that document, but it does not connect the lettered (alphabetized) series variations to the specific patent dates. In total, there were eight different patents associated with the Model 1897 (the first two were carry overs from the Model 1893). I know what the 3rd through the 6th patents covered, but do not have any conformed information for the final two patent dates.
If anyone who reads this has knowledge of this information, please get in touch with me. I have a very lengthy article 98% complete that discusses the Model 1897 evolution and production history.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Danny, Much thanks for posting the pictures of the case colored rifle and shotgun. IF possible, I, too, would like to view the model 1887 shotgun, even if I don’t collect them. Maybe an idea of what to bring to the show?! Keep me in mind, too, should you travel back this way. Would love to have you visit here!
Tim
Here is a picture of my 1887. This shotgun has some varnish on it which saved a lot of the colors. Where the varnish has worn off the color is going grey. When Turnbull or Roger Kurtz cased guns the blues were always too bright.
Chuck said
Here is a picture of my 1887. This shotgun has some varnish on it which saved a lot of the colors. Where the varnish has worn off the color is going grey. When Turnbull or Roger Kurtz cased guns the blues were always too bright.
Thanks for posting Chuck. That’s a great looking 1887. Given the crisp, straight lines; the similar colors and patterns to other known surviving high condition case colored Winchesters and the brushed on and aged varnish – I’ll add this one to my examples of those I consider to be highly probable original Winchester case colors. To me, this is yet another example of original Winchester case colors that have been protected by a factory coating and likely hasn’t had long exposure to UV light. It’s hard not to see the similarities between the colors and patterns on this shotgun and the 1886 discussed in this thread, particularly the surviving reds (pinks) and yellows. Mark
Now that is a fine 1887 Chuck.
A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...
So “The Cleveland” Gun. The Model 1886 that this Thread started out with, is currently @ $33,010, with a little more than an hour to go, as I’m expecting the timer to be pushed farther.
I went and looked at that rifle , and held it in my hands.
Interesting piece.
Antonio
Mark Douglas said
Chuck said
Here is a picture of my 1887. This shotgun has some varnish on it which saved a lot of the colors. Where the varnish has worn off the color is going grey. When Turnbull or Roger Kurtz cased guns the blues were always too bright.
Thanks for posting Chuck. That’s a great looking 1887. Given the crisp, straight lines; the similar colors and patterns to other known surviving high condition case colored Winchesters and the brushed on and aged varnish – I’ll add this one to my examples of those I consider to be highly probable original Winchester case colors. To me, this is yet another example of original Winchester case colors that have been protected by a factory coating and likely hasn’t had long exposure to UV light. It’s hard not to see the similarities between the colors and patterns on this shotgun and the 1886 discussed in this thread, particularly the surviving reds (pinks) and yellows. Mark
When this gun came into the shop for auction we didn’t pick it up for some time thinking it was re done. Walt Hallstein finally took it apart and he thought it was real so I bought it. Bert has seen this shotgun many years ago..
After watching Mark’s latest video on case coloring, and looking at the photos of the Cleveland rifle again… it just leaves me wondering that IF the CC on the rifle is not original, and if Turnbull didn’t do it, and Wyoming Armory didn’t do it, who did?
steve004 said
After watching Mark’s latest video on case coloring, and looking at the photos of the Cleveland rifle again… it just leaves me wondering that IF the CC on the rifle is not original, and if Turnbull didn’t do it, and Wyoming Armory didn’t do it, who did?
England had some of the best gunsmiths in the world refinishing some of the most expensive guns in the world. When I started collecting I was told by several older collectors that receivers and other parts were sent to England for case coloring in the 50’s and 60’s. The examples I looked at were very vivid with reds and greens, add 60 years and they would show age. I have seen several British proofed guns that were refinished 100 or so years ago that look original. In the shotgun world especially in England refinish is common during usage, condition is more important than original finish. T/R
TR said
steve004 said
After watching Mark’s latest video on case coloring, and looking at the photos of the Cleveland rifle again… it just leaves me wondering that IF the CC on the rifle is not original, and if Turnbull didn’t do it, and Wyoming Armory didn’t do it, who did?
England had some of the best gunsmiths in the world refinishing some of the most expensive guns in the world. When I started collecting I was told by several older collectors that receivers and other parts were sent to England for case coloring in the 50’s and 60’s. The examples I looked at were very vivid with reds and greens, add 60 years and they would show age. I have seen several British proofed guns that were refinished 100 or so years ago that look original. In the shotgun world especially in England refinish is common during usage, condition is more important than original finish. T/R
TR –
Thanks for that. I am familiar with the vintage work done by Lancaster – the guys working there had some very strong skills.
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