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I believe the metal finish, including the case colors, is original on this rifle. If so, it’s an interesting time capsule for original Winchester metal finishes.
Note that on the upper tang where the original coating (maybe varnish) is missing on the left side of the tang, the case colors have faded away. I’m deeply into experimenting with coatings and application methods for our case colors at Wyoming Armory, so I found this very interesting.
Unfortunately, while the excellent wood to metal fit indicates the wood is original to the rifle, it may have been lightly sanded and there has been an extra layer of varnish or shellac added to the wood.
I’d enjoy hearing other opinions of this rifle. Mark
I’m suspicious of this being recasecoloured? You have to ask yourself why there were issues with the wood and yet the receiver remained pristine.
mrcvs said
I’m suspicious of this being recasecoloured? You have to ask yourself why there were issues with the wood and yet the receiver remained pristine.
One can’t help but be suspicious but should look for signs of fakery and I haven’t seen them. One of the compelling observations is the scratch in the wood under the added finish on the bottom of the forearm that continues into the case colors.
Also, it’s hard to imagine anyone who could produce fake metal finishes of this quality doing an amateur wood refinishing job.
I don’t have a dog in the hunt on this gun, but I have known about it for some time and know someone who saw it more than 20 years ago in this condition. If it’s been faked, it was done long ago and never made it into the collector market. Mark
I just saw this on the Gunrunner site this morning. Another time capsule 1886 like the one recently sold at RIA. I’m no expert in what original case colors should look like, but if this thing has been hidden in a closet all those years and untouched, why the extra coat of varnish on the wood? And who applied it?
If this is a true example of the untouched, unfaded, color as it left the factory, there’s only one honest word for it–garish. Makes a nickeled finish seem subdued. I’m surprised it would appeal to 19th C. shooters, but stranger things are true. However, if it had been my gun in 1891, I’d have placed it in a south-facing window for as long as it took to “tone-down.”
One has to ask themselves what this gun doesn’t have , that the “Marshfield” gun had that sold at R.I.A. a couple weeks back. To Me it’s another gun I would need to have “in hand” before I’d pay large money for it. It is a helluva story though. This one’s only $22,000.00 Cdn./ $16,000.00 U.S. with no “story”.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
The butt plate does not look like it belongs on that gun if the case is real. I have a 73 with nice case but not like this one and the buttplate still has color to it in spots so the butt plate on this should be better. It is possible the gun got stored with the butt down and got wet and was cleaned up. The wood of course has been redone. The barrel has some blemishes from use that match the dings in the wood but the receiver does not look aged or dinged like the rest.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
Offline
Mark-
I can’t get past the difference in the condition of the wood and the metal. The added wood finish is troubling as are the prominent scratches in the wood. The butt stock may have had a few lighter scratches sanded off, surface seems to have low places below the comb, possibly other places. Could be the lighting but I think you’re right about the sanding and that’s not consistent with the story or the condition of the metal. I suppose those beautiful colors would help most folks overlook issues with the wood.
Mike
The butt plate does not look like it belongs on that gun if the case is real. I have a 73 with nice case but not like this one and the buttplate still has color to it in spots so the butt plate on this should be better. It is possible the gun got stored with the butt down and got wet and was cleaned up.1873man said
Description alleges cond of BP result of storage on carpet that released chemicals which degraded CC. Quite true that modern synthetic carpet releases gases that might well have this effect, but carpets made when gun was put away would have been wool or mohair which have no such effect, though they might hold moisture under humid conditions.
I don’t buy the carpet gas story. Gun safes have had carpet in them for years and if the gas removes case color there would be lots of stories about cased guns deteriorating in them.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
The condition of the stocks versus the receiver frame is troubling. The lever, hammer, and butt plate condition do not match the receiver frame. The barrel bluing shows too much wear. Conclusion… somebody had the receiver frame recase colored., but did not have the other parts mentioned refinished.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
The more I look at the frame, it looks more like that of Turnbull than that of Winchester.
I figured there would be plenty of conjecture about the condition of this rifle and that’s why I asked the question.
There are surely questions about this gun that’ll go unanswered. I have little to no interest in the story. My interest lies in the originality of the metal finishes, since we reproduce the metal finishes used on original Winchesters of this era. Of course, the wood finish is irrelevant since it’s easily recognized as not original.
I’m disappointed that I can’t hold it in my hands and that’s why I won’t give a definitive blessing to the metal finishes. However, living in Cody gives me an advantage in that I’ve taken these pictures to the museum and compared them to high condition examples in the museum. All the metal finishes including the rust blue, charcoal blue and case colors are very consistent with the finishes, as much as one can see anyway, in the pictures. While the case colors on the rifles in the museum may be more muted, the colors and patterns are certainly consistent. Of course, they’ve been displayed and exposed to light for decades which would account for them being more muted.
I also have an advantage in that I have a couple of mentors who have several decades of experience in case color hardening each. I showed them these pictures and both told me they believed the case colors are factory original, even if they questioned the originality of other parts, principally the wood. Neither of them, however, would be apt to discuss this on a public forum where others would feel free to take pot shots at their personal opinions. I’m not nearly so impaired by that possibility, having opened myself up to voluminous ridicule and developed a very thick skin by way of comments on my YouTube channel. 
So far, I’ve heard quite a bit of skepticism about the originality of the case colors, but nothing solid other than conjecture. I suppose it’ll remain a mystery. Conjecture and opinion may be the best we can do.
Again, I don’t have any stake in this rifle and will gain nothing by promoting it as original. My interest is solely in original finishes. I’m leaning as far as I can (without seeing it in person) towards believing that the case colors are original. Your opinion may vary. 
Mark
I would add that if I were interested in bidding on this particular rifle, I wouldn’t do so until checking with Turnbull restorations to make sure it isn’t in their database – just for insurance sake. While it’s quite obvious that this isn’t recent work when one looks at the age of the coating over the case colors, it’s certainly possible that they did the work in days gone by. Mark
If it has chatter marks on the screws it’s original. I can’t tell from the pictures. I like the sharp lines of the metal. T/R
Mark Douglas said
I would add that if I were interested in bidding on this particular rifle, I wouldn’t do so until checking with Turnbull restorations to make sure it isn’t in their database – just for insurance sake. While it’s quite obvious that this isn’t recent work when one looks at the age of the coating over the case colors, it’s certainly possible that they did the work in days gone by. Mark
What always puzzles me about such “questionable” guns is why anyone would spend the cost of a good car for a gun on which there will always hang a doubt, always require an unverifiable “story” to account for its cond.
clarence said
Mark Douglas said
I would add that if I were interested in bidding on this particular rifle, I wouldn’t do so until checking with Turnbull restorations to make sure it isn’t in their database – just for insurance sake. While it’s quite obvious that this isn’t recent work when one looks at the age of the coating over the case colors, it’s certainly possible that they did the work in days gone by. Mark
What always puzzles me about such “questionable” guns is why anyone would spend the cost of a good car for a gun on which there will always hang a doubt, always require an unverifiable “story” to account for its cond.
That’s a great question, Clarence. I wish I had the kind of disposable income it would take to get into the minds of those with that kind of thought process. Alas, as a gunsmith I can’t afford to have nice things – only to work on other people’s nice things.
There are definitely more and more people who value shiny things and are less concerned about originality than those of us traditional collectors. One of the challenges I face in repair and restoration of these old firearms is trying to talk people out of restoring collectable firearms that are in good, original condition. We’re probably faced with that dilemma at Wyoming Armory more than other gunsmiths because of our CCH. There are times I just have to say “No”. It’s definitely cost us customers. Mark
Mark Douglas said
clarence said
Mark Douglas said
I would add that if I were interested in bidding on this particular rifle, I wouldn’t do so until checking with Turnbull restorations to make sure it isn’t in their database – just for insurance sake. While it’s quite obvious that this isn’t recent work when one looks at the age of the coating over the case colors, it’s certainly possible that they did the work in days gone by. Mark
What always puzzles me about such “questionable” guns is why anyone would spend the cost of a good car for a gun on which there will always hang a doubt, always require an unverifiable “story” to account for its cond.
That’s a great question, Clarence. I wish I had the kind of disposable income it would take to get into the minds of those with that kind of thought process. Alas, as a gunsmith I can’t afford to have nice things – only to work on other people’s nice things.
There are definitely more and more people who value shiny things and are less concerned about originality than those of us traditional collectors. One of the challenges I face in repair and restoration of these old firearms is trying to talk people out of restoring collectable firearms that are in good, original condition. We’re probably faced with that dilemma at Wyoming Armory more than other gunsmiths because of our CCH. There are times I just have to say “No”. It’s definitely cost us customers. Mark
Mark,
As long as there is no shortage of work (old guns to fix & repair), it should just be “water off a duck’s back” for you and the potential customer.
If it were me in your shoes and faced with a potential customer that is wanting to refinish/restore an old Winchester that is truly not in need of such work, I would appeal to them from a fiscal approach. When I tell people (all too frequently) that by refinishing their old Winchester that it will reduce the value of the gun by a minimum of 50% (not including the added cost of the work), most times they make the wise decision to leave the gun as is. Most people will understand the significant monetary consequence. I would also casually mention that you keep records of all restored/refinished guns that can be provided on request to the Winchester collecting community… that should squelch the desire to illicitly have an old Winchester restored for resale.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Mark Douglas said
clarence said
Mark Douglas said
I would add that if I were interested in bidding on this particular rifle, I wouldn’t do so until checking with Turnbull restorations to make sure it isn’t in their database – just for insurance sake. While it’s quite obvious that this isn’t recent work when one looks at the age of the coating over the case colors, it’s certainly possible that they did the work in days gone by. Mark
What always puzzles me about such “questionable” guns is why anyone would spend the cost of a good car for a gun on which there will always hang a doubt, always require an unverifiable “story” to account for its cond.
That’s a great question, Clarence. I wish I had the kind of disposable income it would take to get into the minds of those with that kind of thought process. Alas, as a gunsmith I can’t afford to have nice things – only to work on other people’s nice things.
There are definitely more and more people who value shiny things and are less concerned about originality than those of us traditional collectors. One of the challenges I face in repair and restoration of these old firearms is trying to talk people out of restoring collectable firearms that are in good, original condition. We’re probably faced with that dilemma at Wyoming Armory more than other gunsmiths because of our CCH. There are times I just have to say “No”. It’s definitely cost us customers. Mark
Mark,
As long as there is no shortage of work (old guns to fix & repair), it should just be “water off a duck’s back” for you and the potential customer.
If it were me in your shoes and faced with a potential customer that is wanting to refinish/restore an old Winchester that is truly not in need of such work, I would appeal to them from a fiscal approach. When I tell people (all too frequently) that by refinishing their old Winchester that it will reduce the value of the gun by a minimum of 50% (not including the added cost of the work), most times they make the wise decision to leave the gun as is. Most people will understand the significant monetary consequence. I would also casually mention that you keep records of all restored/refinished guns that can be provided on request to the Winchester collecting community… that should squelch the desire to illicitly have an old Winchester restored for resale.
Bert
Oh yes, I’ve had that same conversation many times and overwhelmingly the customer comes around. But there’s always a few…..
Mark Douglas said There are times I just have to say “No”. It’s definitely cost us customers. Mark
Anyone doing quality work will always have PLENTY. In fact, those doing mediocre work usually have plenty. My custom stockmaker friend lives the life of a hermit at the end of a dead-end dirt road, no sign, no internet, won’t answer phone, but has a 3 yr backlog of work solely through word-of-mouth communication. I waited 2 yrs merely for a very simple checkering job!
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