Can anyone identify the engraver of this 1958 Winchester Model 70|Page 2|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

One could likely count the number of legitimate factory engraved pre64 M70’s on two hands

Zeb-

Bert is correct insofar as I know.  At least some of the Model 21 records exist, as these were mostly bespoke (made to order) shotguns and the records were preserved.  Not true for anything else.  I tried to track down information when doing the RCS article and pretty much came up with zip… 

The best records for documenting Winchester factory engraving would be the engraver’s log books.  At least for work done while “on the clock”, as these logs were where they recorded their hours.  Of course any work they did “on the side” (and they all did outside work except Ed Crowley) wouldn’t be recorded.  As I understand it CFM has many of the engraver’s logs from the 19th Century.  Like the Shipping Department ledgers, they are not available for viewing on-line, but I suppose that if you had a suspected John Ulrich engraved M1873 you could possibly get them to find something in his engraver’s log.  I have been told that the individual engravers varied in terms of how much detail they put into their log, some have sketches or smoke pulls, others don’t have much…

Pertaining to M70s (1937 – 1963)… Nobody seems to have Alden George Ulrich’s logs (1919-1949), but McCracken Library is supposed to be checking for me…  Pauline has many (or all) of the logbooks beginning with John Kusmit and ending with her own.  So she might very well be able to find something on later Custom Shop engraved guns.

Best,

Lou

Gentlemen,  Thank you all.  That is very enlightening.  

You pays your money and you takes your choice, in jobs of gun engraving as in other commissioned works of art. And one man’s meat is another man’s poison.

But I believe there are certain verities peculiar to gun engraving. 

One of those was summed up by the late Jack O’Connor:  

If it [ a job of gun engraving] is not very well done, it is ghastly. 

I will add:  Less is usually better. The more extensive the coverage, the more the job demands perfection in pattern design, scale, and execution. An engraver of modest skill and experience might be able to produce an attractive monogram, but butcher a 50% coverage commission. The flaws add up. 

The Dallas area, perhaps Texas generally, seems to be the national repository for garish, loud, awkward, really bad gun engraving.  As Mother said at every opportunity, “Money doesn’t make manners.” She might have added, “or any grasp of good art.”

I am not a collector of engraved pieces but I have spent a lot of years looking and trying to understand what truly excellent engraving looks like. When Jack Prudhomme was alive, his reviews and commentary were most helpful. He was aided in that by the late John Amber. I miss both of their guidance. 

The old collector’s adage, “When in doubt, do without”, should apply with equal force to the question of gun engraving – particularly the selection of the engraver. There are no bargains in neurosurgeons or engravers. 

martin rabeno said
Looking at the photos and the written comments there seemed to be a question of the guide lines with the lettering  Yes they usually lay out lettering in this manner. My curiosity is with the side plate lettering It is authentic I am sure but the intensity of the case colors make me thing it was colored after being engraved and not at the same time as the rifle. Now when engraving a case hardened gun it needs t be annealed. After engraving it can be reharden. I am sure this is the case with this rifle  Now if it was done at the factory or after he fact  Who knows
  

Martin…

Thank you, that answered my question and more