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Buy the gun or the story??
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Troutdale, OR
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September 20, 2018 - 3:36 pm
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Just interested to see what others think of the “provenance” on this one:

http://merzantiques.com/product/w2373-well-documented-winchester-model-94-deluxe-carbine-having-belonged-to-ad-topperwein/

Don

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September 20, 2018 - 3:48 pm
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its on Merz site…..its already over priced……

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September 20, 2018 - 4:11 pm
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Manuel said
its on Merz site…..its already over priced……  

Not looking to buy.  I’ve just heard the saying, “buy the gun, not the story”.  Just wondering if that applies to the “story” of this gun. 

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September 20, 2018 - 5:01 pm
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Manuel said
its on Merz site…..its already over priced……  

He’s willing to wait–years, if necessary.  No obvious reason to doubt the “story,” but Ad owned & used scores of guns during his long life, & this one isn’t one that was ever used in his exhibitions.

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September 20, 2018 - 5:20 pm
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September 20, 2018 - 5:58 pm
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deerhunter said

Not looking to buy.  I’ve just heard the saying, “buy the gun, not the story”.  Just wondering if that applies to the “story” of this gun.   

Never buy a gun based upon the letter or the story.  You need to make sure all 3 are correct.  Leroy is like many long time successful dealers.  He usually has quality stuff but always wants top dollar.  He doesn’t need to discount his guns so he doesn’t.  If this gun is something you have to have you’ll need to step up to get it.  You have to keep in mind what it hammered for is not the total cost and then all of the expenses to go to show after show every year.

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September 21, 2018 - 3:42 am
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Did you guys ever watch Dragnet? Just the facts ma’mam!

Ok, Adolf Topperwein died in March 1962 at age 92. So by this guns serial number it was made in 1940. In 1940 Topperwein would have been 70.

I should also mention, I by no means consider myself expert of all things concerning the Topperweins. 

Now not facts, just my speculations, I suppose at 70 years old a nice presentation gift at that age would have been a nice gesture from the Winchester company. Say this is true. Now to say this rifle was never used in one of his exhibitions, may also be true, but how would you prove that? From what I’ve read the Topperwein’s didn’t stop touring until 1951. So there is 11 years of wide open possibilities. 

I find George’s letter most interesting, he just like everyone else was human, which makes it possible for him to make mistakes. But I believe his letter has merit. One thing I find somewhat frustrating has exactly to do with such a letter of his. Madis mentions a bound book of presentation guns that had various salesman and the like recorded in it. Now the question is, Where is that book now? In fact, where is most of George’s reference materials. From everyone I’ve talked to about this very topic, collectors, dealers, friend’s of George’s, nobody knows what happened to such things! This is a frustrating problem. 

That aside. The gun itself I’d say is somewhat unusual from a standard eastern carbine. The grain of the wood is somewhat fancy and some nice sights to boot. The engraving is intriguing. It appears to be in the white, which I’m not sure if that tells us anything, but it is what it is, sort of speak. 

I do ask myself though, would most people that were going to try and fake such a gun, just merely put Adolf initials? Why wouldn’t you put the full first & last names? So there would be no doubt as too who owned the gun to begin with. 

If the book George mentions could be found, I think it would help with the provenance of the piece for certain. Also to see Mr. Coffey’s hand letters would be helpful as well. 

Will also add, I do suppose it is fine that Mr. Merz is aloud to make some profit. I do imagine paying employees, and overhead does factor into things. I don’t think his markup is nowhere near as bad as “Dad’s Old Guns” on Gunbroker.

Sincerely,

Maverick 

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September 21, 2018 - 4:39 am
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Maverick said
Now not facts, just my speculations, I suppose at 70 years old a nice presentation gift at that age would have been a nice gesture from the Winchester company.   

Maybe so, but considering his service with the company, two initials seem more niggardly than nice.

Proving a negative–that this gun wasn’t used in his exhibitions–would be challenging, to say the least; but if you read about the kinds of stunts & tricks he most commonly performed with pistols, shotguns, &.22s, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of situations in which a .30WCF would be the best choice of calibers.

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September 21, 2018 - 6:06 am
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To see Ad using a Winchester 94 in a show jump to 18:40 in this video.

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4029-1.jpg

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September 21, 2018 - 11:33 am
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According to the RIA listing:

“An accompanying document (photocopy) from Winchester factory records of guns presented to salesmen and executives lists several Winchester firearms presented to Topperwein by the Winchester company on September 16, 1946. These guns were presented to Topperwein at the time of his retirement, and this carbine is clearly listed by serial number with the added handwritten notation “w/ mod. 1903 rear sight.” 

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September 21, 2018 - 2:18 pm
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 I have bought two gun’s with history from Leroy, one I paid a premium for, the other not. My experience has been very favorable, I appreciate history and don’t mind paying for it, marrying gun collecting and history interests me. In both cases the history was limited and accurate, I was able to build on it and create a very thorough provenance. The documentation is with the gun for posterity. These gun’s appeal to non gun collectors if the subject is a common name known to non gun collectors. As to value, I’m not sure Topperwein is a commonly known name to a non gun guy. Imagine the price if the initials were J. W. (John Wayne). T/R   

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September 21, 2018 - 7:26 pm
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As interesting as the subject is, it looks to be a moot point, considering the known details including location, previous and present sales notes.

James

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September 21, 2018 - 10:56 pm
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I have no reason to doubt Leroy and several reasons to believe him. As Maverick rightly observes Ad probably owned dozens of guns and many were probably presentation guns like this one. I’m a fan of the Topperweins but even if the provenance indicated it had been used in their exhibitions I’d be hesitant to pay this price. OTOH I’m quite certain it’s worth every penny to the right collector.

 

Mike

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September 23, 2018 - 11:49 pm
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FWIW, I looked through it all and accept it as legitimate. 

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September 25, 2018 - 3:18 pm
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I believe in more buying the gun, not the story unless the story can be documented.  

It’s always nice to have a story though. 

IMG_0805-Copy-Copy-Copy.JPG

Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886

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September 25, 2018 - 5:48 pm
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Kevin Jones said
I believe in more buying the gun, not the story unless the story can be documented.  

It’s always nice to have a story though.   

But can’t we conclude that the story is documented on this rifle?  I wouldn’t want to purchase the rifle if it just had what appeared a random “AT” inscribed upon it.  But, the documentation, indicating the tie to the famous person it was presented to, makes a big difference to me.  My thought is that there is adequate documentation on this point.  Just my opinion of course.

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