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“Benchmark” Winchester Model 1892 rifle
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April 9, 2022 - 2:21 am
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https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__BEST_KNOWN_BENCHMARK_CONDITION_WINCHESTER_MODE-LOT529779.aspx

Well, that’s quite the claim!  IMHO, a truly “benchmark” example, Described as follows in the catalogue description:  “This could quite possibly be the highest condition Winchester Model 1892 Takedown rifle extant.”  

Not really.  Look at the 5th photograph, especially the blued takedown portion behind the forearm.  Wear or even paginated from carrying.  I’m not even convinced that this isn’t wear since a well executed refinish.  Some photographs aren’t convincing that this is not refinished.  But maybe it isn’t.  What say you?

Also, numerous other blemishes that preclude this from being a benchmark.

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April 9, 2022 - 4:00 am
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What the hell does Benchmark even mean?

How can it be measured against if its never been to auction before and not a well known gun?

The big scratches on the receiver immediately knocks off the benchmark in my opinion.

Looks like a overpriced standard takedown rifle in high condition.

Sincerely,

Maverick

P.S. It’ll probably go double estimate like a lot others do!

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April 9, 2022 - 12:23 pm
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Please post your photos of 92’s that are in Higher original condition. We would all like to see them. The gun in question is all original finish everywhere. And it presents itself well despite lots of small areas of flaking blue and rust spots and needle point pitting and patina. Any collector would love to have it. The market will determine the value. 

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April 9, 2022 - 1:12 pm
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I’m not saying it’s not nice, and it possibly is original finish but I’d like to have the gun in hand to determine that.  But it’s not certainly the best one out there, a “benchmark’.

Here’s a Model 1894 rifle that’s more of a “benchmark” than the Model 1892.  Look at the curve at the top part of the stock where it joins the crescent buttplate and compare it with the Model 1892 rifle.  The 1892 looks a bit more rough.  And why is that so?

https://live.amoskeagauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/87/lot/48222?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F87%3Flotnum%3D130

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April 9, 2022 - 8:55 pm
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Hello all,

I first saw this rifle for sale on “The Winchester Grove” back in May of 2020.  I did not record the asking price for it at that time.  The gun then showed up at auction at Poulin in November 2021 and “sold” for $14,000 to an onsite bidder. https://www.proxibid.com/EXCEPTIONALLY-FINE-WINCHESTER-1892-TAKEDOWN-LEVER/lotInformation/64423642   Now here it is 6 months later for auction again at Morphy.   My only question regarding the condition is why was the rifle NEVER taken down and there are NO scratches on the magazine that might result form that.  I would think that a rifle this well taken care of was cleaned at least a couple times in the past 120 years.

Groves pics:

Winchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_EC55D910F51B286F.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_F41DEFD6DFD62D87.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_E9CDF4EA5D638C35.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_E56CE97E25EB752A.jpgImage Enlarger

Winchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_E86F4D89F74BAD6F.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_6105B20B91E46B42.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_8590B69BDF88C8A6.jpgImage Enlarger

Winchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_8691819728894A04.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_B77B8EE18F4113E2.jpgImage Enlarger

Winchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_71DC86EC630DE8DC.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_079CCA432471E793.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_82A55F15BD0A7D04.jpgImage Enlarger

Winchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_3E7508180793DC9C.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_6E78C043EA816C69.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_06F0A2E1D45E7A1D.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_07C8370BFB235D05.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-1892-Octagon-44_101451379_25819_7D725F63F90FBE9B.jpgImage Enlarger

Poulin Pics:

4184_1.jpegImage Enlarger4184_2.jpegImage Enlarger4184_3.jpegImage Enlarger4184_4.jpegImage Enlarger4184_5.jpegImage Enlarger

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

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April 9, 2022 - 11:49 pm
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This is just an impression, but the rifle leaves me a bit suspicious.  Maybe I’m just being paranoid, but there’s a lot of reason to be paranoid given what goes on in our collecting world.  

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April 9, 2022 - 11:54 pm
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steve004 said
This is just an impression, but the rifle leaves me a bit suspicious.  Maybe I’m just being paranoid, but there’s a lot of reason to be paranoid given what goes on in our collecting world.    

Well, that’s my point and why I addressed this.  It may be 100% correct, but I’m skeptical.

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April 9, 2022 - 11:56 pm
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steve004 said
This is just an impression, but the rifle leaves me a bit suspicious.  Maybe I’m just being paranoid, but there’s a lot of reason to be paranoid given what goes on in our collecting world.    

For sure Steve – I agree with the comments from lan. When you look at the photos, especially blown-up, of the butt stock meeting the rifle butt, you see they exhibit not only poor wood to metal fit but poor wood condition. This Model 1892 would not be for me. 

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April 10, 2022 - 12:32 am
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Burt Humphrey said

For sure Steve – I agree with the comments from lan. When you look at the photos, especially blown-up, of the butt stock meeting the rifle butt, you see they exhibit not only poor wood to metal fit but poor wood condition. This Model 1892 would not be for me.   

riflebutt.JPGImage Enlarger

This is how the rifle butt on the 92 should fit.

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April 10, 2022 - 10:13 am
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I never really had any negative thoughts toward Morphy auctions(nice stuff) but they’ve now answered the call like RIA & the others. I could give them the benefit of doubt for the “Benchmark” slip up, but that’s a big one to make calling this piece the benchmark. Funny how one word in the collecting world can really change the game or appearance of a reputable or seemingly reputable vendor. 

 RickC 

   

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April 10, 2022 - 12:08 pm
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RickC said
I never really had any negative thoughts toward Morphy auctions(nice stuff) but they’ve now answered the call like RIA & the others. I could give them the benefit of doubt for the “Benchmark” slip up, but that’s a big one to make calling this piece the benchmark. Funny how one word in the collecting world can really change the game or appearance of a reputable or seemingly reputable vendor.   

I had never heard the term Benchmark applied to collectible guns.  Maybe some other auction houses and sellers have used it, but I’ve missed it.  When I saw it I just assumed it was yet another mutation of auction hyping.

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April 10, 2022 - 12:18 pm
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Burt Humphrey said

riflebutt.JPGImage Enlarger

This is how the rifle butt on the 92 should fit.  

Burt – I appreciate your thoughts and the photo you supplied.  I would not consider purchasing the rifle in question because of my suspicions.  That is not a condemnation of the rifle.  Rather, it is a simple fact – not that it is a fact the rifle has been altered – but a fact that I have suspicions.  I suppose some high rollers out there don’t care as much that something altered might make it into their collection.  I recall Wes Adams was a very high roller and when I looked at his stuff come up for auction, there were more than a couple pieces that I had suspicions of much greater magnitude than I did about this one.  My point is few of us, at best, will be able to purchase very few high dollar pieces in our lifetimes.  On those rare occasions, being, “sure” is highly important.  Not getting burned is highly important.  And there are so many opportunities to get burned out there. 

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April 10, 2022 - 1:19 pm
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Burt Humphrey said

riflebutt.JPGImage Enlarger

This is how the rifle butt on the 92 should fit.  

Thank you Burt!

A picture is worth a thousand words.

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April 10, 2022 - 1:23 pm
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The 1892 gun in question’s wood to metal fit on the left rear upper part of the butt plate is Damage to the wood. Not a poor fit. There are chips in the wood along that edge and they all follow the grain line direction like they should to be true chips. 

The gun is not a benchmark. The word benchmark in this case is simple sales puffery. The auction house writers are salesmen promoting their product, not collectors studying the gun with unbiased views toward originality. 

The Model 94 posted is a beauty! And much closer to benchmark status. 

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April 10, 2022 - 1:28 pm
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steve004 said

I recall Wes Adams was a very high roller and when I looked at his stuff come up for auction, there were more than a couple pieces that I had suspicions of much greater magnitude than I did about this one.  

The problem with collectors like Wes Adams is that they are tossing around a tremendous amount of cash, and they strive to assemble a top notch collection, at least by outward appearances.  With that amount of pure cash being offered by someone who likely hasn’t spent decades studying and scrutinizing this sort of stuff, the wolves will be at the back door in short order.  Yes, some of his collection was legitimate, but a great deal of it was helped, or even created, to match the item or items he was seeking and corresponded with the depth of his pockets.

In this game, slow and steady wins the race.

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April 10, 2022 - 7:33 pm
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Very nice 1892, as far as I can tell. The comments above illustrate why I’ll seldom consider a very high condition old Winchester. I see no evidence it has been “helped”, marks are consistent with handling and shipping. Truly amazing colors for a gun nearly 120 years old. 

Benchmark? At one time one of the roughest bars in the town where I grew up and later enforced the law was named “Benchmark”. The bouncers had an unpleasant habit of violently beating unruly customers before tossing them out the door. Besides that I don’t think the term “benchmark” has the superlative connotation the auction hose was looking for, at least not for me.

 

Mike

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April 10, 2022 - 9:56 pm
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CJS57 said
The 1892 gun in question’s wood to metal fit on the left rear upper part of the butt plate is Damage to the wood. Not a poor fit. There are chips in the wood along that edge and they all follow the grain line direction like they should to be true chips. 

The gun is not a benchmark. The word benchmark in this case is simple sales puffery. The auction house writers are salesmen promoting their product, not collectors studying the gun with unbiased views toward originality. 

The Model 94 posted is a beauty! And much closer to benchmark status.   

We will have to respectfully disagree regarding the wood to metal fit of the butt plate. You often hear collectors talking about the wood being “proud” to the metal. On this 1892, especially noticeable when the photo is blown up, the metal of the butt plate clearly does not meet the wood proudly with the wood actually looking undersized. Winchesters did not leave the factory with any butt plate fitting like that – see attached. I do not see how the butt plate case hardening could remain so pristine after all these years with the adjacent wood deteriorated as it is. I think this would be one of those guns that would even look worse once it is sitting in your lap. This may be the reason the gun has been rapidly changing owners. But, just my opinion.

model1892d.JPGImage Enlarger

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April 10, 2022 - 10:50 pm
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Burt Humphrey said

We will have to respectfully disagree regarding the wood to metal fit of the butt plate. You often hear collectors talking about the wood being “proud” to the metal. On this 1892, especially noticeable when the photo is blown up, the metal of the butt plate clearly does not meet the wood proudly with the wood actually looking undersized. Winchesters did not leave the factory with any butt plate fitting like that – see attached. I do not see how the butt plate case hardening could remain so pristine after all these years with the adjacent wood deteriorated as it is. I think this would be one of those guns that would even look worse once it is sitting in your lap. This may be the reason the gun has been rapidly changing owners. But, just my opinion.

model1892d.JPGImage Enlarger  

Agreed 100%.

The photograph of the buttplate speaks volumes.

Note the evident poor fit, especially as you assess towards the toe, where the buttplate is improperly prows to the stock.  Also note the almost 90 degree angle created between the crescent buttplate extension and the buttplate.  Scratches with finish on the stock on the right side, probable sanding and refinishing.

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April 10, 2022 - 11:10 pm
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mrcvs said

Agreed 100%.

The photograph of the buttplate speaks volumes.

Note the evident poor fit, especially as you assess towards the toe, where the buttplate is improperly prows to the stock.  Also note the almost 90 degree angle created between the crescent buttplate extension and the buttplate.  Scratches with finish on the stock on the right side, probable sanding and refinishing.  

So, if the rifle received enough use in the buttstock area to require refinishing, how could the original case colors on the buttstock be left so vivid?

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April 10, 2022 - 11:15 pm
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steve004 said

So, if the rifle received enough use in the buttstock area to require refinishing, how could the original case colors on the buttstock be left so vivid?  

It’s difficult to say without having the rifle in hand, but it might be suggestive of the buttplate having been recasecoloured.

Burt Humphrey is REALLY good with this sort of stuff.  Burt, what do you think?

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