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Belgian Congo or more accurately French purchase 1894 carbines were discussed here a few years ago.I just dug out mine again and wonder if anything more is known about them.
Maybe that thread was on the old forum
There’s an article in the Fall 2009 Winchester Collector magazine about them if you haven’t looked at that already. I think maybe Rick Hill has/had one also.
podufa said
Belgian Congo or more accurately French purchase 1894 carbines were discussed here a few years ago.I just dug out mine again and wonder if anything more is known about them.Maybe that thread was on the old forum
You are correct, they are French Contract versus “Belgian Congo” Carbines. I recently began researching and studying this particular variant of the military contract Model 1894/94 Carbines. What I have found thus far, is that the French Government allegedly ordered/purchased 15,100 .30 caliber Model 1894 Saddle Ring Carbines from Winchester in the latter part of the year 1914. Thus far, I have identified & surveyed (13) of them, in the 659874 – 685308 serial number range, which corresponds to March – September 1914 PR dates. I am actively looking for more of them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks
I have read the Michael Carrick article and also a shorter one by a different author a little later.I emailed Michael Carrick a few times about them.He did a lot of research on them, found a contract in France with Winchester for 2400. House only found a 15100 contract with France.Wonder if there were two contracts or if only one was filled.
The only one I have seen is the one I own.Mine is a little rough, about 20% blue, gum wood stocks a little beat up.
Again thanks
Based on the relatively small number of them that have surfaced to this point, the 2,400 contract that Michael Carrick found appears to be much more realistic than the 15,100 contract mentioned by other sources. In addition to the French contract, there were 5,000 that were delivered to Canada in 1915 that have the DCP marking on them, and thus far I have (16) of them in my survey. In 1917, the U.S. Army procured 1,800 “Spruce Guns”, with (203) of them surveyed thus far.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
The Canadian and U.S.Army have nothing to do with the French contract.
I think the small number we see is because they went to Europe and were used during the “Big War”.They were not expected to be returned.
France sold some to a company in Belgian Congo after they were done with them.
I doubt they had a high survival rate
True, the Canadian and U.S. Army contract were not related to the French Contract, but they were all used in/during WW I, and the survival rates should be roughly the same based when and what they were used for. I mentioned them because there are “parallels” that can be studied.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Interesting, may have to look for that article. How do you identify these French Contract rifles?
TXGunNut said
Interesting, may have to look for that article. How do you identify these French Contract rifles?
Mike,
The easiest visual clue is the side mount slings, and the 44A rear sight marked in meters. Take a look at the article in the Fall 2009 Collector magazine written by Michael Carrick.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
How can you expect the survival rate to be the same?The French guns went to France and some time after the war some of them were sold to a company in Belgian Congo.They had to be imported back to the U.S. The U.S.Army or “Spruce Guns”never left the U.S.And the Canadian guns were never very far away.
I don’t see how one would expect the survival rates to be the same
podufa said
How can you expect the survival rate to be the same?The French guns went to France and some time after the war some of them were sold to a company in Belgian Congo.They had to be imported back to the U.S. The U.S.Army or “Spruce Guns”never left the U.S.And the Canadian guns were never very far away.I don’t see how one would expect the survival rates to be the same
You appear to be misinterpreting what I wrote.
the survival rates should be roughly the same based on when and what they were used for.
The Canadian DCP marked Model 1894s were used during WW I aboard ships and smaller watercraft, many of which were lost/sunk, and the guns that were not lost were subjected to a harsher environment than the French Contract/Belgian contract guns. Additionally, the fact that they were all manufactured more than 100-years ago is also a common factor that must be considered when evaluating the survival rate. Those are the “parallels” that I am referring to.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Roughly the same,as potatoes are roughly the same as watermelons you have good logic.
The U.S. guns were delivered Jan. 1918 the war ended Nov. 1918 that is 10 months. They were in inventory Aug. 1919.
I wish I had never started this thread all I get is opinion no fact.
podufa said
Roughly the same,as potatoes are roughly the same as watermelons you have good logic.The U.S. guns were delivered Jan. 1918 the war ended Nov. 1918 that is 10 months. They were in inventory Aug. 1919.
I wish I had never started this thread all I get is opinion no fact.
George,
If you want nothing but pure facts, invent a time machine and go record them for us. I tried my best to provide the information known to me, but then you purposely chose to nit-pick it to death.
The Spruce Guns did survive at a greater percentage, and I thought that I made that clearly evident when I posted the total number currently in the research survey (203). My primary comparison of survival rates was the Canadian DCP marked Carbines. With 5,000 delivered, and only (16) of them verified thus far, the actual documented survival rate is slightly less than the French Contract Carbines (if the 2,400 number is used).
French Contract: 13 surveyed / 2,400 = .54%
Canadian Contract: 16 surveyed / 5,000 = .32%
By any measure, those numbers are “roughly” the same.
Last comment… the Canadian DCP marked carbines had to be re-imported just like the French carbines, so you do not get to use that as a valid argument.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
Mike,
The easiest visual clue is the side mount slings, and the 44A rear sight marked in meters. Take a look at the article in the Fall 2009 Collector magazine written by Michael Carrick.
Bert
Thanks, Bert. Need to make a list of research/reading projects. Hard to say where to start.
Mike,
A friendly warning… that might become a very large list of reading projects!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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podufa said
Roughly the same,as potatoes are roughly the same as watermelons you have good logic.The U.S. guns were delivered Jan. 1918 the war ended Nov. 1918 that is 10 months. They were in inventory Aug. 1919.
I wish I had never started this thread all I get is opinion no fact.
I disagree, podufa. I’m glad you started this thread. Cool topic! OTOH surveys of stateside (mostly) rifles involving 100 yr old guns that left the country of origin headed for battlefields will be subject to small sample errors. It’s inevitable because many simply will never be heard from again, for various reasons. The chances of a given rifle being exported to one foreign country, possibly to another country and then winding up in a survey are not good. Surveys are far from exact but in most cases are the best info we have. IMHO Bert’s opinions are based on surveys and since I know Bert tirelessly conducts (and understands) surveys I value his opinion. Exact data with the documentation we have available today is unlikely. I’ll settle for informed opinions over seemingly exact stats any day. A wise man once said that given enough numbers he could prove anything.
That reminds me, I need to send some data on a few of my rifles to members who need the data for their surveys.
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
Mike,
A friendly warning… that might become a very large list of reading projects!
Bert
Thanks. Found the archives and the Fall 2009 issue, couldn’t figure out how to open it. Hints?
TXGunNut said
Thanks. Found the archives and the Fall 2009 issue, couldn’t figure out how to open it. Hints?
TXGunNut saidThanks. Found the archives and the Fall 2009 issue, couldn’t figure out how to open it. Hints?
Mike,
Click the Brown tab under the left corner of the magazine picture that says “View Magazine”. After you click it, it will prompt you to login again. After that, it should open up a screen showing you the cover of the magazine against a tan background. On the right hand side of the picture of the cover is a white arrow… click it and it will open the cover of the magazine. I always click the magnifier tool (the + inside a circle) to maximize the size of the page, then grab the moveable bar in the gray box and drag it to the left to size the image to my liking. To proceed to new pages, either click the white arrow, or click the double arrow in the bottom right hand corner of your display.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
Thanks. Seems I confused the website when I finally got around to renewing and made a mess of things. Trish is taking care of things and I should be able to access the archives in a few days.
I know we are talking about Model 1894 carbines but out of interest I have a data base of 56 DCP marked Model 1892 carbines, from the 20,000 that were supplied in the same time period as the Model 1894 DCP carbines, giving .28%
Strictly speaking these DCP carbines should be referred to as British guns as they were ordered by the British Admiralty and were delivered to the UK. Canadian inspectors were roped in to inspect the carbines on behalf of the British, who’s inspectors were fully deployed elsewhere, hence the DCP or Dominion of Canada Proof marking being used.
As an aside 4,000 Remington Model 14 1/2 rifles in 44WCF were also purchased at this time by the British Admiralty and DCP marked. A researcher in the USA has documented 100 of these so far, or 2.5% which is a pretty good effort in my opinion.
Regards
AlanD
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