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Another Faked Winchester - Model 71
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April 21, 2018 - 3:27 am
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April 21, 2018 - 5:42 am
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Good Gosh! Of course to understand such goings on; but seldom with proof short of bungled or nonexistent model creation! Particularly with barrel-integral front sight bases on rare rifles, SOP a close visual checkup!
Even though masterful alteration, no 100% visual test, but often an adequate indicator!
Here, a point particularly interesting considering a carbine being purveyed. Such and no closeup of that front sight in a circumstance where I’d surely expect to see such good photo!

Bert, what was the time span between first and second listings?
Indications the seller simply ‘innocent holder in due course’, ‘perp’ purchaser, or conspirator’?
How to deal with holding info/evidence of definite fraud? Does this seller have a known ‘wrap’ for questionable transactions/complaints? I suppose I’d be likely to send a copy of that prior sale listing and await his reaction. Presumably to jerk the ad and if honest, at least private message of thanks! In any case, presumably ‘on inquiry notice’ of discrepancy and no good-faith sale under such circumstance.
Thanks for an interesting if sad, ‘suspicions confirmed’ category of transaction.
My wider view that so much ‘stuff’ purveyed nowadays with at least ‘blind eye’ if not outright ‘catch me if you can’ attitude concerning irregularities. Such sufficient to offer a ‘heads up’ (or ‘heads out’, as appropriate).
End of the day, an sad irony. Likely a very decent, original gun sacrificed to non-collectible fraud status.
Thanks for posting and if any updates, please return with such!
My take

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April 21, 2018 - 11:52 am
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From internet pictures the barrel looks to be original vintage Winchester? Is this model 71 carbine barrel being reproduced like the Octagon Model 1890 barrels? Another case where forensic matching of the proof marks would help in certain situations. We need good close ups of the barrel ramp to really see what is going on there.

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April 21, 2018 - 12:21 pm
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Principal question is, was dealer Don Goheski in on the scam?  Gun could have been sold to him as is.  If so, he should be the MOST outraged party of all, & file suit against the seller for fraud as soon as he can.  But if, provided with this proof of the scam, he takes no action, it will be clear he’s part of the fraud.

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April 21, 2018 - 1:52 pm
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The rifle configuration model was sold on 12/9/2012.  That’s 5 1/2 years for someone to have altered the configuration to a carbine.  It shouldn’t be that hard for the current seller to find out who the winning bidder was back in ’12 if he is not in on the scam.  Interestingly, he also has a similar listing for a Model 71 rifle with “mixed features” to include a “pre-war” barrel like the one the listing we are discussing used to have.  http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-71/winchester-71-deluxe-rifle-24-quot-barrel-production-1941.cfm?gun_id=101017771

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April 21, 2018 - 2:07 pm
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Good eye, Bert and Wayne. Seller apparently specializes in 71’s so it’s reasonable to assume he would spot inconsistencies. Rather troubling set of circumstances.

 

Mike

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April 21, 2018 - 4:34 pm
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If we didn’t know the past history on this rifle, can anyone discern this piece isn’t right?  I realize none of us are holding it our hands, but are there enough clues in the photos?  There’s not for me.  I know there are different possibilities – such as a factory short barrel has simply been swapped, someone is making fake barrels and so on.  This question is of interest to me as most of the time when we encounter something, we don’t have a past auction to refer to.

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April 21, 2018 - 5:30 pm
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steve004 said 
…someone is making fake barrels and so on.  

THAT, as many probably know, has been going on a long time; Sonny France anyone?  And now, the technology for faking them is far more sophisticated. Although makers who advertise their work as repros, like the outfit that makes repro M.90 brls, aren’t the true fakers–it’s the ones who mount them, then pass them off as original, who are the real culprits.

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April 21, 2018 - 8:00 pm
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I only posted this to expose the gun itself as a fraud. I do not want to get involved in who the guilty party is in the perpetration of the fraud.

If it were not for the fact that I have been surveying the Model 71s since early 2011, this particular fraudulent specimen would have most likely never have been detected. Currently, I have 1,673 specimens recorded in my survey document, and in nearly all of them, I recorded when & where I found them. In some cases, I have seen the same serial number resold 3 – 4 times in the past 7-years, and I have recorded that information as well.

What I find disturbing is the proclivity of a number of unnamed dealers to wantonly perpetrate fraud. This is a very sad and unfortunate fact that we have such people within our midst. Caveat Emptor!

Bert

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April 22, 2018 - 3:57 pm
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Bert H. said
I only posted this to expose the gun itself as a fraud. I do not want to get involved in who the guilty party is in the perpetration of the fraud.
If it were not for the fact that I have been surveying the Model 71s since early 2011, this particular fraudulent specimen would have most likely never have been detected. Currently, I have 1,673 specimens recorded in my survey document, and in nearly all of them, I recorded when & where I found them. In some cases, I have seen the same serial number resold 3 – 4 times in the past 7-years, and I have recorded that information as well.
What I find disturbing is the proclivity of a number of unnamed dealers to wantonly perpetrate fraud. This is a very sad and unfortunate fact that we have such people within our midst. Caveat Emptor!
Bert  

One is a long standing member of WACA too. He almost got me but for the Curator of the Cody Museum.   Big Larry

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April 22, 2018 - 7:58 pm
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So are we looking at a simple Barrel Swap? As everything else but the barrel and sights looks the same from the photos?

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 22, 2018 - 8:05 pm
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Maverick said
So are we looking at a simple Barrel Swap? As everything else but the barrel and sights looks the same from the photos?

Sincerely,

Maverick  

That’s what it looks like to me.

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April 22, 2018 - 11:56 pm
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Maverick said
So are we looking at a simple Barrel Swap? As everything else but the barrel and sights looks the same from the photos?

Sincerely,

Maverick  

Yes, it is a barrel swap… to a much less common 20-inch “carbine” length.

Bert

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April 23, 2018 - 12:53 am
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Big Larry said

One is a long standing member of WACA too.

Good cover!

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June 30, 2018 - 11:28 pm
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MODEL 71 Real Deal

Bert,

I have a question that relates to this topic.   I am approximately 50 years old and I have inherited a Model 71 from my grandfather with a stamped production number of  510.  Both a gun auction house in Texas and one in New England said it would be from the first year of production 1935 which coincides with the story my grandpa told me and the Winchester factory production chart.  He said he got in exchange for goods from his building supply store during the depression in 1936 or 37 because it was the same year he had bought the house on the lake.

The real question is if it were you, and you were going to sell it, how would you sell it ???  I have tried to attach pictures but cannot seem to figure out the system on your site.  I am a military chaplain and I move to often so this needs to be sold unfortunately. 

Thank you in advance.  Chad Production stampImage Enlarger

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July 1, 2018 - 1:49 am
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[email protected] said
MODEL 71 Real Deal

Bert,

I have a question that relates to this topic.   I am approximately 50 years old and I have inherited a Model 71 from my grandfather with a stamped production number of  510.  Both a gun auction house in Texas and one in New England said it would be from the first year of production 1935 which coincides with the story my grandpa told me and the Winchester factory production chart.  He said he got in exchange for goods from his building supply store during the depression in 1936 or 37 because it was the same year he had bought the house on the lake.

The real question is if it were you, and you were going to sell it, how would you sell it ???  I have tried to attach pictures but cannot seem to figure out the system on your site.  I am a military chaplain and I move to often so this needs to be sold unfortunately. 

Thank you in advance.  Chad   

Chad,

Model 71 serial number 510 is technically a second year production, as it was manufactured in January of 1936 per the Winchester factory serialization records.

If I were selling it, I would take it with me to one of the larger guns shows, or list it on Gunbroker.com

The value will primarily depend on which variation it is, and the graded condition.  As a Guest on the WACA website, you cannot upload pictures directly, but can post a link to pictures on a photo hosting website.  You can also send pictures directly to me at [email protected] and I can post them for you.

Bert

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July 1, 2018 - 4:26 am
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Bert,

Good morning, and thank you for your reply.  Evidently, the chart you have is more specific than the one I was looking at.  Is there some place I can go to find the chart you are using?   As one of the senior members on this site (WACA) I am betting you are right however I would like to see the chart.  I will send you some of the pictures.  What are some of the things I can point out to show people my gun is original etc?  Are these things people routinely fake?  I have seen people asking pretty high prices for guns with high serial numbers that have pretty obviously been refinished etc.

Again, thank you in advance.

Chad

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July 1, 2018 - 7:19 am
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Chad,

I used the original Winchester factory serialization records (at the Cody Firearms Museum (CFM) records office) when I conducted the research for the article I wrote a few years ago about the Model 71. The last serial number manufactured in the year 1935 was 477. Your rifle was undoubtedly made in January of 1936. The CFM can (for a fee) provide you with the exact date on an official letter.

Bert

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July 1, 2018 - 9:42 pm
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On the topic of Model 71 carbines.  Too good to be true?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/772099012

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July 2, 2018 - 4:35 pm
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steve004 said
On the topic of Model 71 carbines.  Too good to be true?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/772099012  

Same seller as the rifle discussed in the “65 in 218 Bee” thread. 

 

Mike

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