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Speaking of 219 Zippers
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September 30, 2013 - 3:43 pm
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Test your appraisal skills on this rare and very popular shooter – Model 64 in 219 Zipper. Any comments concerning the percentage of metal and wood finish that remains on it, to include, the quality of the bluing itself, plus any first hand knowledge of relative recent sales for such rare pieces in similar condition will be appreciated, be they conservative or not. This Zipper has a perfect bore and action including the bolt peep sight and sling swivels, plus the added barrel scope blocks with the correct 7&3/16" spacing. I also have the old Lyman Super Targetspot Scope in 12X in its original Lyman box that came with it through an antique dealer, with the previous owner’s name, city, and state on it. A very nice combination, indeed!

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September 30, 2013 - 5:19 pm
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Using my very modest experience, the blueing looks fine to me. The wood looks good in some photos but some of them suggest the buttstock has been sanded. The sling swivels are not correct. I don’t think the scope blocks belong there but maybe Winchester did that. And, I have a couple 64s a little earlier than this serial number that are not drilled and tapped for a receiver sight. I don’t know when that became standard.

From a value standpoint, if the one with the parts barrel sold for over $3000, this one should be $3500-$4000 on Gunbroker but I think I’d probably look for a different gun for me.

Let me know how badly I did 🙂

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September 30, 2013 - 6:15 pm
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To me the gun would be in the $ 1800.00 range. At auction it may go much higher. RIA Auction could top $ 5000.00

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September 30, 2013 - 8:16 pm
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To start this out, the Model 64 in 219 Zipper is not exactly "rare". With (1209) Model 64s surveyed thus far, (97) of them are 219 Zippers (8.61%). The extrapolated total is (5,753), or nearly the same as the total production for the Model 65.

I also am of the strong opinion that the sling swivels are not factory original. A standard Model 64 rifle with special ordered sling swivels would have the identical style as found on the Deer Rifle (which was standard equipped with sling swivels).

In regards to the "added" scope blocks, you stated it correctly… they were added after the rifle left the factory.

The stocks and bluing condition appear to match, and I believe them to be factory original. I would rate it at 95%.

Because of the non-factory alterations, the purist collectors will steer clear of it unless it is really cheaply priced. The "dealers" out there most likely would be interested in it if the price was < $2K. There is no telling what an uninformed collector would be willing to pay for it, but I suspect that getting anything north of $3K is going to be difficult.

My 2-cents,
Bert

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October 1, 2013 - 10:18 am
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Sb I think you did good. A whole lot better than I could have done back when I bought it! The bluing is nice, and I can understand your comments concerning the wood since we are having some stormy weather here, and the little natural light that I could get yesterday kept changing due to the clouds which made it difficult to take good pictures. The finish of the rifle is original. I don’t think the rifle left the factory with the scope blocks, which is the main reason that I referred to it as a shooter and not a collectible. Your $3500 to $4000 estimate is quite good, in my biased opinion.

Floyd58523: Excellent response. Thank you!

Bert: Very good online appraisal, even so far as the value part, thanks. I’d add the one very important factor that makes SB’s estimate and floyd58523’s high end estimate very realistic, is the overall appeal that such a rifle has for a lot of people, including many who would be very well informed. A high percentage of individuals buy guns that appeal to them, whether they are shooters, collectibles, or both. On your survey figures: How many Zippers do you believe were actually made between 1937 and 1941? I ask this because your extrapolation figures causes me to think that every twelfth model 64 was a Zipper!

My comments: I think the scope blocks were added after it left the factory, and the chances that it was returned to the factory at a later date to have the work done is very slim, in my opinion. Nonetheless, whoever put the blocks on it did a good job, and a piece of shim can be seen on one side of the rear block. As for the sling swivels, what Bert said makes sense, but if you had the gun in hand and inspected it, you’d have to admit that whoever did the work on the blocks and the swivels was a pretty good craftsman. I could not get the front swivel to come off. All it does is turn, and I’m not up to taking the forearm cap off to inspect it internally, (see below pictures):

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October 1, 2013 - 12:14 pm
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Why do you ask how many were made in just the years 1937 – 1941?

Winchester introduced the 219 Zipper in January of 1937, but the actual production began in late 1936, and it continued through August of 1942 when production of the Model 94 & 64 was temporarily suspended until June of 1945.

Following WW II, Winchester resumed manufacturing the the Model 64 in 219 Zipper, and it was last listed in the 1948 catalog. Based on the information I have in my research survey, the year 1946 was the most prolific for the Model 64 in the 219 Zipper cartridge, with (41) documented thus far (more than 40% of the total I have surveyed). In the years 1946 – 1948, I have documented (45) 219 Zipper rifles.

So yes, my extrapolated numbers do indicate that 1:12 Model 64 rifles was a 219 Zipper. The 25-35 WCF was the least common of the standard production calibers, and thus far, I have documented just (66) of them.

Bert

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October 1, 2013 - 5:02 pm
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Okay, I’m going to mention Madis here so bear with me:

Madis states in his handbook that, "In 1937 the .219 Zipper was offered in some dealer lists." He also notes that "In 1941 calibers .219 Zipper and 25-35 were dropped from the line." Additionally he points out that sales records for the model 64, between 1933 and 1942, totaled almost 29,000 rifles. He also states that, "…sales for the years from 1933 to 1942 indicate sales of 18,400 guns in caliber 30, 7,498 in caliber .32 Special, and 1902 for the caliber 25-35. The Zipper was behind with 841 guns sold." So, my question to you at this point in time is this: Are the sales record stats that Madis has put forth here fact or fiction, because I’d suspect that you would have access to them, provided they exist? Using his numbers of 841 guns produced out of a total of 28,641 results in 2.94% of the total production, or 1.260% if we consider a the total production of 66,783 units produced.

Again, bear with me here as the following information is speculation for the most part. In reference to your note about 40% of the Zippers in your survey being for the year of 1946, I’d think that none have a DOM for 1943, 1944, or 1945, and I’d suspect that the ones with a DOM of 1946 were mated to Zipper barrels that were on hand prior to 1943, so as to use up the vast majority of remaining parts. As for the Zipper being listed in the 1948 catalog, I’d think enough parts might have still been on hand to make advertising it worthwhile. Whatever the case might have been, your survey probably does not show very many Zippers made during the last thirteen years of model 64 production, so why extrapolate the production figure that you have in your survey for the rifles produced during the early years into such a long period of time when only a much smaller percentage were produced?

Personally, I’ve not seen anywhere close to a ratio of one in twelve, but if you are correct, then Zippers are quite common.

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October 1, 2013 - 10:44 pm
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James,

Madis’s published information in regards to the Model 64 caliber production dates and totals is not accurate. I do not know what "sales records" he referred to.

What I do know is this… In the past many years since I began my research survey, I have documented (47) 219 Zipper rifles manufactured in the July 1936 though April 1942 time period. In the years 1946 – 1956, I have documented (49) more of them, with the last one assembled in 1956.

While my extrapolated total production is undoubtedly not an accurate number, and it may be overly optimistic, I believe that it is much closer to the true number than the much smaller number that Madis published. Only time will tell as I add more data to the survey.

In regards to you not seeing many of them, my experience is different than yours. Just a few years ago, one particular dealer I personally know had six of them on his table at the same time. A collector friend of mine owns seven of them. The fact that I have found nearly (100) of them is a very strong indication that there were more than just (841) of them made.

My survey shows the following (based on the total production of 66,783;

30 WCF – 58.96%
32 WS – 24.78%
25-35 WCF – 5.86%
219 Zip – 8.61%

The remaining very small % are the ultra rare 32-40 and 38-55 rifles.

Bert

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October 2, 2013 - 8:18 am
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Bert,

I think you are right in that there are more out there than the 841 that Madis came across, as he admitted that the sales records were incomplete, so he knew there were more there, as your survey shows. However, the fact that your survey has turned up as many as it has is the intriguing part, especially since my own personal experience in finding them is proof they are hard to come by, more so than a one in twelve ratio, I think.

I’ve seen one collector at the Puyallup show a few years back that had several very nice Zippers, and since I search for them from time to time online, I come across more than the typical Winchester fan would ordinarily see. Then, Don Grove has them in bunches from time to time. So, they are very popular among collectors and dealers for sure.

It might be that since you know a great many collectors, and make a lot of the big gun shows, that you are tapping into an inordinately high number of Zippers. This, and the fact that lots of folks are aware of your survey who might have only one model 64, like me, and I own it in part for its scarcity due to its popular caliber among folks like us today. Should this be the case, Bert, and I believe it might be, then your survey results are not likely to change much over time, other than inch up slightly.

James

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October 2, 2013 - 9:33 am
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My survey results may very well be skewed by the information that I have collected thus far in my travels. That is just one of the many reasons why I intend to continue the research surveys for a long time to come.

From a purely mathematical approach, the extrapolated numbers that I have postulated thus far will become more accurate with each new Model 64 serial number that I record. Look at it like a very large jigsaw puzzle with 66,783 total pieces, and I have 1,209 of them locked into place. Right now, the picture on the puzzle is still indistinct, and it has many gaps in it. However, and as I add (lock in) more pieces to the puzzle, it becomes better defined (clearer), and certainly a more accurate representation of the actual picture (production). Again, time will tell the story.

Bert

p.s. I will be at the October Puyallup WAC show on the 12th.

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October 2, 2013 - 1:49 pm
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That makes sense Bert, and if you are right, I’d think the ratio factor should be quite different than it is now for the Zipper.

I’ll see you at the show. An old school buddy of mine from my teenage days is supposed to meet me there.

James

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October 15, 2013 - 11:01 pm
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Zipper with drilled and tapped barrel went for $4,325.00 on Gb

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=369480834

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October 16, 2013 - 6:48 am
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James,

That is just plain nuts in my opinion, but then again, what do I know?

Bert

p.s. I must have missed you at the Puyallup show.

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October 16, 2013 - 8:00 am
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I think it has to do with it’s popularity due to the low production numbers, the caliber, it’s remaining condition, and the holes being in the barrel instead of the receiver. I could have sold mine ten to twelve years ago for $2750.00, but I decided to keep it.

I did miss the Puyallup show due to an unexpected trip to Texas. Which show will you be making next?

James

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October 16, 2013 - 10:16 am
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I will be in Reno for the November show.

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