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I just purchased a short barreled, antique Model 1894 rifle in .30 W.C.F. Haven’t received it yet so no pictures. The Cody letter states in part: "Sights: Lyman hunting front and rear". The rifle does have a Lyman No. 4 Ivory Hunting front sight and a Lyman No. 2 Combination Tang sight. The rear sight is a Marbles Rear Sporting Sight.
My question is: what would you expect to see on an 1897 vintage rifle with "Lyman hunting front and rear" sight designation?
Thanks.
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Rick
Based upon the general wording in the Cody letter and the more specific sight descriptions you mention, I would not be surprised to see a Lyman No. 4 Ivory Hunting front sight, along with a Lyman No. 2 Combination Tang sight – First Variation on it, since it was the latest combination sight produced by Lyman at that time, and that removal of the target disc would provide the larger aperture for hunting or target shooting either one. Also, I would suspect that the Marbles Rear Sporting sight was factory installed as well.
James
James:
That is kind of what I thought. Since I can find no reference to a barrel mounted Lyman rear hunting sight then the reference to "Lyman Hunting Front and Rear" sights encompassed the tang sight and left open to the factory what rear sight to mount on the barrel. I would have expected a short-base Marbles Hunting sight or maybe a Winchester express sight.
Thanks for the prompt and knowledgeable reply.
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I would add that the Marble barrel sight might not be original to 1897. I think you’d want to examine it thoroughly and also the barrel for wear from another sight. I only have one Marble catalog, from 1910. The 95 series adjustable leaf rear sights were cataloged then. (I wasn’t aware until now that Marbles offered the adjustable leaf sight that early, so I learned something new!) The sporting leaf sights weren’t. Here is a 95 series adjustable leaf on Win 38-55’s gun:
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5574
Here is a later catalog page showing both sporting leaf and adjustable leaf sights:
http://www.cornellpubs.com/diva/divaPOP/divaPOPgold_img.htm?i=http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images2/Marbles%201953%20Trade.jpg&c=&a=Marbles%201953%20Outing%20and%20Gun%20Equipment%20Catalog&h=1&n=1&x=&s=15
Based on this little history of Marble arms, what is in Old Gunsights and what I see in the catalog I have, I don’t know that Marbles would have been making a rear barrel sight in 1897 or at least the sporting leaf sight. I would be happy to be corrected and learn something more.
http://www.marblearms.com/history.html
Not that it means anything certain here either, but the earliest catalog available here is 1905:
http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/historic-marbles.php
If you get into reading the old sight catalogs, you’ll find Lyman and Marble encouraged the removal of any rear barrel sight as it is a distraction for the eye to have anything extra in the sight picture. The entire concept is to concentrate on the front bead and let the eye automatically center a bead in the "ghost ring". A major selling point to the hunter was (and is) quickly acquiring a target, moving or not. You won’t find too many blade type front sights in their catalogs either. They are pretty much all bead types capable for use with a peep. If you are shooting a fairly flat shooting cartridge, it is my experience, and the recommendation of the old catalogs, that the rear barrel sight be removed. This is especially true in low light. The fold down rear sights were developed to fill that void I suppose. Maybe people weren’t that comfortable yet abandoning buck horn type sights completely. For very long range I suppose a shooter could flip up the tang peep and have the rear sight below the sight picture.
Just my opinion on it anyway.
Brad
That is kind of what I thought. Since I can find no reference to a barrel mounted Lyman rear hunting sight then the reference to "Lyman Hunting Front and Rear" sights encompassed the tang sight and left open to the factory what rear sight to mount on the barrel. I would have expected a short-base Marbles Hunting sight or maybe a Winchester express sight.
If there isn’t any wear from a traditional rear buck horn sight and elevator, or wear from a three-leaf express, I would guess a Lyman No. 6 folding leaf (Lyman Patent Leaf Sight) or a No. 12 (slot blank).
I would be curious to know how often a Winchester would letter mentioning both Lyman and Marble sights on the same gun.
Brad
Brad,
You could be right in that the Marbles Sporting Rear Sight might not have been in production as early as 1897, as I don’t know, but the following references might help to some extent: In The Sight Book under the section dedicated to Marbles Sights on page 173 is found, "The Marble Company began business in 1893 and from earliest production, these sights were stocked and offered by Winchester." And on page 175, a picture and description of their Sporting Rear Sight Series 95 is shown. It is the only sporting rear sight noted this section.
James
James
Someone sat me down once, after one of my repeated batteries of questioning about sights, and went through The Sight Book with me. This individual has been selling gun sights for a very long time. He is one of the sources listed for Old Gunsights. He said he had met George Madis more than a few times and respected him very much. Then he thoroughly went through several errors and points of disagreement he had with that particular book. In a nutshell, he didn’t care for it. The reason I bring this up is he showed me the exact quote you are referring to: "The Marble Company began business in 1893 and from earliest production, these sights were stocked and offered by Winchester." as one of the several things he felt weren’t necessarily accurate. His quote to me was "Everybody knows Marbles started in 1898". I don’t take everything this one person says as the gospel either, but he made some good points. I’m sure there is a ton of good information in that book as well. It sounds like Marble was doing something with sights by 1893. I just don’t know that it was manufacturing anything other than an early version tang sight.
The 1910 Marble catalog I have contains a three page history of the company in the front called A Little Story of a Big Success, taken from Field and Stream, Dec. 1909. It lists the company beginning 12 years earlier, 1897-98. "Beginning in a small shop in the rear of the inventor’s residence at Gladstone for the sole purpose of turning out an axe…"
In 1898 Mr. Marble had 600 square feet of factory floor. By 1899 he had a partner and constructed a 9000 square foot factory. At least that’s what they say in their catalog.
I guess one way to know for sure would be to see what was cataloged. My Winchester catalogs stop at 1903. There are Lyman and Winchester sights pictured and listed as options. There are no Marble sights pictured or mentioned. Sometime after 1903 they show up in the Winchester catalog. Same thing goes for Savage arms catalogs. When my Winchester catalogs pick up again in 1916, Marble sights are included. If someone could look through their Winchester catalogs after 1903 they might at least see when Marble sights started being listed as cataloged options. I would be very curious to learn if they were ever listed prior to 1903 in a catalog I don’t have.
Like everyone else, I get told information about old guns all the time from people. Sometimes I learn things I didn’t know before and had been mistaken about. Sometimes I’m told complete falsehoods either unintentionally or intentionally 👿 I like to get information from as many sources as I can, see if there is a consensus, and act accordingly. Until I can do better, that’s logical to me. I guess that’s why I’m trying to give as many sources as I can come up with for this sight information. I’d also really like to know the earliest Cody info on a gun that mentions a Marble sight specifically.
Many opinions and experiences are one of the great values of discussion on this forum. I’m grateful for the learning opportunities here.
Brad
Hedley Lamarr said
JamesSomeone sat me down once, after one of my repeated batteries of questioning about sights, and went through The Sight Book with me. This individual has been selling gun sights for a very long time. He is one of the sources listed for Old Gunsights. He said he had met George Madis more than a few times and respected him very much. Then he thoroughly went through several errors and points of disagreement he had with that particular book. In a nutshell, he didn’t care for it. The reason I bring this up is he showed me the exact quote you are referring to: "The Marble Company began business in 1893 and from earliest production, these sights were stocked and offered by Winchester." as one of the several things he felt weren’t necessarily accurate. His quote to me was "Everybody knows Marbles started in 1898". I don’t take everything this one person says as the gospel either, but he made some good points. I’m sure there is a ton of good information in that book as well. It sounds like Marble was doing something with sights by 1893. I just don’t know that it was manufacturing anything other than an early version tang sight.
The 1910 Marble catalog I have contains a three page history of the company in the front called A Little Story of a Big Success, taken from Field and Stream, Dec. 1909. It lists the company beginning 12 years earlier, 1897-98. "Beginning in a small shop in the rear of the inventor’s residence at Gladstone for the sole purpose of turning out an axe…"
In 1898 Mr. Marble had 600 square feet of factory floor. By 1899 he had a partner and constructed a 9000 square foot factory. At least that’s what they say in their catalog.I guess one way to know for sure would be to see what was cataloged. My Winchester catalogs stop at 1903. There are Lyman and Winchester sights pictured and listed as options. There are no Marble sights pictured or mentioned. Sometime after 1903 they show up in the Winchester catalog. Same thing goes for Savage arms catalogs. When my Winchester catalogs pick up again in 1916, Marble sights are included. If someone could look through their Winchester catalogs after 1903 they might at least see when Marble sights started being listed as cataloged options. I would be very curious to know and also to learn if they were ever listed prior to 1903 in a catalog I don’t have.
Like everyone else, I get told information about old guns all the time from people. Sometimes I learn things I didn’t know before and had been mistaken about. Sometimes I’m told complete falsehoods either unintentionally or intentionally 👿 I personally like to get information from as many sources as I can, see if there is a consensus, and act accordingly. Until I can do better, that’s logical to me. I guess that’s why I’m trying to give as many sources as I can come up with for this sight information. I’d also really like to know the earliest Cody info on a gun that mentions a Marble sight specifically.
Many opinions and experiences are one of the great values of discussion on this forum. I’m grateful for the learning opportunities here.
Brad
Brad,
Good information. Thanks for taking the time to go into such great detail on this issue as I do appreciate it.
It will be interesting to hear more about this rifle from Rick, and pictures would be a big plus as well.
Hopefully someone will provide information having to do with "the earliest Cody info on a gun that mentions a Marbles sight specifically."
James
My sincere thanks to all! Very solid discussion. I went through Madis’ "Sight Book" and Stroebel’s "Old Gunsights" before posting my initial message but couldn’t form any solid opinion.
Of course we will never know what the gun had on it when delivered (except for the Lyman combination mentioned in the letter). The gun in question should be interesting and I am excited about sharing it with Forum members once I get it in my hands and get it photographed.
The condition is probably such that there will be wear marks on the barrel from the rear sight. I just wanted to make some kind of judgement as to whether it was appropriate to leave the Marbles sight on it or if it would be more appropriate to replace it with a Winchester Express sight. At this point, I think I will keep my eyes open for an "experienced" Express sight.
If you have one and want to part with it, let me know!
Thanks –
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