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Model 1894 TD rifles scalloped / unscalloped TD levers
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November 2, 2013 - 6:13 pm
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There was some discussion recently in a post on another topic, about scalloped / unscalloped TD levers on Model 1894s with shorter than standard magazine tubes. It was discuessed that it was the norm to make 1894 TD rifles with shorter magtubes with scalloped TD levers, and that 1894s found with shorter magtubes and unscalloped TD levers ( with the cam / lobe which fits into an inlet in the bottom flat of the barrel), should be viewed with skepticism. But, I have been seeing quite a few unscalloped with the cam, which sure look correct to me. If I recalll, I think Mike Hunter said he has seen a couple as well. Here are a few I recently found. One thing I noted – and that they all have in common – is that they are all fairly early guns – the highest s/n here is about 69,000. This makes me wonder if this was something Winchester was doing early on, but then made the change to scalloped TD levers at some point in the manufacturing process. I have seen several more – all in early s/n ranges as well – but these are the ones I can find photos of right now. I also looked at dozens more all in higher s/n ranges, and all those were scalloped.
Mike: Do you recall if the one or two you saw were also early rifles?
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_info.asp?lot=1079-327
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_info.asp?lot=1031-327
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=41004&sale=303&lot=2109
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=41003&sale=303&lot=2110
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/60/lid/1043
Anyway, just some food for thought on the weekend.

Matt

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November 3, 2013 - 3:03 am
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Matt
Think there may be some confusion.
Generally, you will find the “unscalloped” levers without the cams on shorter than full length magazine tubes . This is so the lever can be turned a full 180 deg and the magazine tube can be unscrewed. On full length magazine tubes, the lever only needs to move 90 deg to clear the barrel. The full length (unscalloped) levers have the cams. I say generally because 1886 LWs with full magazines will have unscalloped TD levers on full magazines. Now, I have seen two (one ea 1894 and 1892) that had a scalloped TD lever with a cam and the half moon cutout in the bottom of the barrel.
I didn’t see that in any of the examples that you posted; But its early here and Im getting ready to take the boy out deer hunting, so I only took a quick look.

V/R

Mike

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November 3, 2013 - 4:51 am
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Mike Hunter said
Matt
Think there may be some confusion.
Generally, you will find the “unscalloped” levers without the cams on shorter than full length magazine tubes . This is so the lever can be turned a full 180 deg and the magazine tube can be unscrewed. On full length magazine tubes, the lever only needs to move 90 deg to clear the barrel. The full length (unscalloped) levers have the cams. I say generally because 1886 LWs with full magazines will have unscalloped TD levers on full magazines. Now, I have seen two (one ea 1894 and 1892) that had a scalloped TD lever with a cam and the half moon cutout in the bottom of the barrel.
I didn’t see that in any of the examples that you posted; But its early here and Im getting ready to take the boy out deer hunting, so I only took a quick look.

V/R

Mike

Thanks Mike. Yes, I think I am confused on the term "scalloped". I thought it meant scalloped had no cam, unscalloped had the cam. I have never seen this term before I read it in Bob’s book and on here, and it was never that clear to me. I mist go back and read again. Does the term scallop simply refers to the shape of the actual lever (flat or not flat) and has nothing really to do with cam or no cam? I think I am still confused, lol. I’ll go back and do some more reading, sure I’ll get it figured out!

Matt

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November 3, 2013 - 6:34 am
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Matt
The flat levers (with no radius cut into the top) are for full magazines, they have the cam that fits into a half moon cut on the underside of the barrel. The “scalloped” variant has a radius cut that allows the lever to move a full 180 degrees. Bob R. theorizes that that radius was put there to keep the lever from scratching the barrel. My thoughts are that the radius is there to allow the lever to rotate 180 deg, allowing the lever to be used as a lever. Without that ability to rotate 180 degrees on a short magazine you cannot unscrew the magazine.

Hope this helps

Mike

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November 3, 2013 - 7:53 am
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Mike Hunter said
Matt
The flat levers (with no radius cut into the top) are for full magazines, they have the cam that fits into a half moon cut on the underside of the barrel. The “scalloped” variant has a radius cut that allows the lever to move a full 180 degrees. Bob R. theorizes that that radius was put there to keep the lever from scratching the barrel. My thoughts are that the radius is there to allow the lever to rotate 180 deg, allowing the lever to be used as a lever. Without that ability to rotate 180 degrees on a short magazine you cannot unscrew the magazine.

Hope this helps

Mike

10-4. I think I got it now. I thought that what folks were saying (and I totally misread that), was that TD rifles with shorter than full magtubes could not have the cam that fits into a half moon cut on the bottom flat of the barrel, and rather they should all have the TD levers that snug up on the left side of the barrel. That is why I posted all those pics of TD rifles with short mags that had the cam / inlet system; which I guess are all correct as long as they have the scalloped end allowing for full 180 rotation. So, what it comes down to is unscalloped / flat cranks are for full mags, and the ones that are scalloped (rounded at the end) are for shorter mags, for either of the reasons you folks stated. That makes sense to me now. I think part of my misunderstanding was in the term "scalloped". Back on the East Coast where I am from, that term is used for something tastey from the Sea, or one of the ways I used to have my potatoes as a kid:)

Thanks Mike,

Matt

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November 3, 2013 - 4:19 pm
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Matt
Actually , now that I’ve had a chance to sit down and look at the links, I believe that you are on to something.
Looking at the posted links, they all look like the lever is at the 6 o clock position which would be correct for TD mag plugs with the cam. For those without the cam the correct position would be about the 9 O Clock position.
The Rock Island pics clearly show a “scalloped” lever with a cam. So there are three distinct variations of the TD lever.

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November 6, 2013 - 5:00 pm
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Mike Hunter said
Matt
Actually , now that I’ve had a chance to sit down and look at the links, I believe that you are on to something.
Looking at the posted links, they all look like the lever is at the 6 o clock position which would be correct for TD mag plugs with the cam. For those without the cam the correct position would be about the 9 O Clock position.
The Rock Island pics clearly show a “scalloped” lever with a cam. So there are three distinct variations of the TD lever.

Hi Mike,

Sorry for the delay. I was away hunting the last few days. Back in town for a bit though before I head out again to look for that elusive monster buck!

Here are a couple others I came across as well, both with early s/n’s as well:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/WINCHESTER-1894-TAKEDOWN-ANTIQUE-38-55.cfm?gun_id=100370885
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Winchester-Model-1894-Takedown-Extra-Light-30-WCF.cfm?gun_id=100368493

Matt

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