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January 26, 2011
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I’m a little baffled too. The guns do seem legit, or at least the ones I can remember, and they are of high condition but logic just keeps telling me the boxes and crates are made up. I think the guns would sell themselves so why take all the time and effort to create the boxes to go with them and have people start doubting you? Hmmmmm, the things that keep me up at night.
~Gary~
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wolfbait said
He is a high profile seller on the internet, and has all positive feedback. He knows people doubt his items, but he is daring them to try to show his items are fraudulent. No one has been able to expose him.
I have exposed many of his items… you obviously have not paid much attention to previous topics on this forum, or on Gunbroker. Were you aware that he changed his user name on Gunbroker to hide his identity?
Is there a reason that you appear to be defending him?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have read previous posts where someone said a label did not look correct or some such thing. Collecting Colts, I know that manufacturers did have variations in labels and box markings. Someone with the skill to make these items would certainly copy them exactly from known examples. This fantastic Model 42 he has for sale has a box that certainly looks correct to me. These high grade Winchesters he is selling are great guns. The boxes add some money, but I don’t know if its worth the risk to go to all the bother of secretly making and aging the boxes and paperwork when you have great guns to sell. All the expense and risk of making fraudulent boxes may be wasted, many collectors may want the high grade guns he is selling and do not value the boxes and crates at all. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=430495175
Wolfbait,
If you are that enamored with his wares, buy them!
Caveat Emptor ❗
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Wolfbait,If you are that enamored with his wares, buy them!
Caveat Emptor ❗
Bert
I am enamored with his Winchesters, aren’t you? He is selling beautiful Winchesters. Isn’t that 1886 a great gun? Boxes do not mean much to me, I am a gun collector not a box collector. He has sold a lot of his guns for large sums of money. Some of those buyers buying his expensive guns must be serious Winchester collectors. Everyone is happy, all positive feedback. You would think one of those buyers would be knowledgeable enough that after close in hand inspection of his purchase and showing it to other collectors he could detect any fraudulent features. They should be able to find real provable flaws, not just things that "look too good".
My take on this seller is he either is liquidating a big collection of boxed guns that have been squirreled away for over a half century or he is putting guns in boxes and if he is doing the latter then it taints the guns as well. Because if he feels there is no harm in faking the boxes than he is willing to fudge the guns as well. Its just like when I’m at a gun show and see a table with a gun that has been helped, I look at the rest of his guns suspecting the same has been done to them.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
My take on this seller is he either is liquidating a big collection of boxed guns that have been squirreled away for over a half century or he is putting guns in boxes and if he is doing the latter then it taints the guns as well. Because if he feels there is no harm in faking the boxes than he is willing to fudge the guns as well. Its just like when I’m at a gun show and see a table with a gun that has been helped, I look at the rest of his guns suspecting the same has been done to them.Bob
I agree. He has some guns for sale I would like to own. They simply are not available anywhere else. His feedback is 100% positive, and he shows lots of good pictures. But some of the experts here are saying pretty bad things about him. I am holding off and just watching for now. Maybe one of his many happy buyers will get on this forum and shed some light on the matter.
There are some items that this seller, either under his current Gunbroker ID or the previous one, sold that were clearly incorrect. For example, there were at least 3 labels with model numbers that weren’t correct for the time period.
I am surprised that he has 100% feedback. I do know that I’m not bidding on his auctions because the past fake items. I think several people are avoiding his stuff.
The box labels were off in numerous ways, including the time period (more than 30-years behind in some cases). One of the "funny" things about the box labels, is that the serial number was neatly hand written in blue ink, and in the same handwriting, but the serial numbers were as much as 30-years apart… just a bit suspicious don’t you think ❓
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Wolfbait,If you are that enamored with his wares, buy them!
Caveat Emptor ❗
Bert
I am enamored with his Winchesters, aren’t you?
To answer your question, NO, I am not. A fair number of the guns he has sold in the past have been "helped".
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Many old guns have been modified or altered over the years. It kind of sounds like sour grapes to not admit that he has offered some great Winchesters. If his guns or boxes show intentional fraudulent alteration he should be confronted with it. I would confront him if I could prove anything. Wrong box/wrong era does not prove anything, boxes move around. Intentional alteration to deceive deserves contact and an explanation. I still think he has some fantastic guns. Sooner or later his perfect feedback should indicate dissatisfaction by someone who can prove his items are fraudulent. I am still baffled how a guy in a small 3000 population town, unknown to other collectors, comes up with a large number of high grade Winchesters and runs a cottage industry in fake boxes and crates without anyone exposing his source.
wolfbait said
If his guns or boxes show intentional fraudulent alteration he should be confronted with it.
There in lies the problem. Lets look at a legal definition of fraud.
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant’s actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
These elements contain nuances that are not all easily proved. First, not all false statements are fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must relate to a material fact. It should also substantially affect a person’s decision to enter into a contract or pursue a certain course of action. A false statement of fact that does not bear on the disputed transaction will not be considered fraudulent.
Second, the defendant must know that the statement is untrue. A statement of fact that is simply mistaken is not fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must be made with intent to deceive the victim. This is perhaps the easiest element to prove, once falsity and materiality are proved, because most material false statements are designed to mislead.
Third, the false statement must be made with the intent to deprive the victim of some legal right.
Fourth, the victim’s reliance on the false statement must be reasonable. Reliance on a patently absurd false statement generally will not give rise to fraud; however, people who are especially gullible, superstitious, or ignorant or who are illiterate may recover damages for fraud if the defendant knew and took advantage of their condition.
Finally, the false statement must cause the victim some injury that leaves her or him in a worse position than she or he was in before the fraud.
Looking at this seller do you think you would be able to clearly make a claim of "Fraud" in a court of law.
I am still baffled how a guy in a small 3000 population town, unknown to other collectors, comes up with a large number of high grade Winchesters and runs a cottage industry in fake boxes and crates without anyone exposing his source
If you want a cottage industry in faking things I’m your man and just about everyone else out there that has any sort of know how on these kind of things. All you need is some old wood, old nails, a few hand tools, a printer, and some Elmers glue and your in business. In fact if I wasn’t busy working and dealing with family, I could probably churn you out a shipping crate in no time, and it would be better that what that guy is peddling.
Simply arguing, oh well all the guns out there have been tampered with one way or another and a box is a box is a box. Is just about the same as me stating that what Bill Clinton did with Monica in the Oval office is acceptable and just fine and dandy, because all men cheat!
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
wolfbait”]Is this one fake? http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1930s-WINCHESTER-WOOD-SHIPPING-CRATE-BOX-Rifle-Shotgun-Ammo-Hunting-/231245060699?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item35d7479a5b&nma=true&si=73OUfr2JVQkG0ddviB8BvLGy6MM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
If it was would you be surprised?
wolfbait said
From what I have seen of his items I could not accuse him of fraud, but some people here have expressed that his items are fraudulent. One person said "The seller is a dishonest dealer, and has sold dozens upon dozens of faked boxes/crates". Crates and boxes can certainly be reproduced. That does not mean that all are fake.
Yeah boxes & crates can be reproduced, as very well can practically everything else. I think your confusing the issue, and I don’t know how you think I’m stating that all the boxes and crates out in the world are fake. Just more likely or not coming from certain sellers in the vast world of firearms sales, there are plenty of people selling faked goods. And the trend keeps on going up and up.
Selling a whole package or "Lot" of items and not disclosing to the buyer (or purposely not disclosing) that the various pieces / parts where put together buy yourself and claiming they originally left the manufacture together, is dishonest to say the least. And yeah you might can say that the seller isn’t claiming that, but that would only be recently, and more certainly just the flavor of the month this month. If you’d been paying attention to the forum in the past, there were plenty of instances where this type of malarkey was going on. If you buy 2 items together and if 1 of the 2 is legit and the other 1 is a polished turd, your still getting a polished turd in the deal. And these types of turds aren’t cheap.
Shaking My Head.
Calmly and Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Glad someone confronted him. He does have some nice guns and some boxes that look original. But any seller that pushes the envelope by selling fraudulent items hurts our hobby. I am still baffled by his inventory. I am certain the true story behind his guns and boxes would be interesting. Eventually someone will "spill the beans", and we will find out where these guns and boxes/crates are coming from. I’m darn curious.
I would think long and hard before I EVER bought a crate to go along with a gun, unless I bought it cheaply (under $25) strictly for display purposes. Don’t even think I would spend the $25 on it, as most are faked and I really dislike faked stuff. It is difficult and expensive enough to find a good Winchester these days — don’t go wasting your hard-earned money on the crate as well. Also, I really would avoid buying firearms ‘over the internet’ WHERE post_id = but that is another topic of discussion…
"Taught By Midas"…I remember that guy. Per Wikipedia, "The most Famous King Midas is popularly remembered in Greek mythology for his abilty to turn everything he touched with his hand into gold." In this case, maybe fool’s gold…
This sellers first 14 feedback were all as a buyer. Wonder what he was buying?
I am making a wild guess that most of you on this forum know who I am. You have also probably seen my opinion on packaging.
I have seen perfect examples of unboxed guns sell for one price and imperfect examples in what is "supposed to be" the original box for twice as much.
Furthermore, it is not uncommon to find an actual and correct new-in-the-box gun with lots of wear or even rust and/or flaking.
Don’t be "nuts" over original packaging. If you pay considerably more for it, it is at your own peril.
There are definitely correct examples out there but I would estimate an equal or greater number of fakes.
Preserving the condition of the packaging notwithstanding – it is a pain-in-the………….!
This reminds me of the fellows that always had fantastic NIB Model 70s and Model 21s – Don’t see them around anymore as near as I can tell.
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