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I have seen plenty of model 1885s with Pope barrels on them.
Was curious to know how this affects the value of the firearm to most collectors? Does it increase, decrease value? Or merely considered an added bonus?
I can see that a collector fascinated with or that appreciates turn of the century single-shot competition shooting might highly value such a model 1885.
Also In Pope’s 1899 catalog, its mentioned that "I recut rifles of other makes to larger sizes with the same outfit and guarantees as for a new barrel." I do believe I have seen some other model winchesters marked with Pope’s stamp. Was also curious as too how a recut barrel by Pope would affect value?
What would be some broad range percentages of increase in value? Or devalue, depending on how such gun was modified?
Your Thoughts appreciated.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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Price would depend on a lot of things. A complete Pope muzzle loading outfit built on a Winchester in perfect condition would be worth a lot to the guys who worship Pope single shots. The condition of the bore would be of utmost importance to these guys as Popes are still being used in competition.I suppose that a lot of 1885 collectors would be aghast if Pope had taken a rare configuration and put one of his barrels on it but any excellent Pope is worth some serious money,especially one of his muzzle loading outfits that would be complete with the false muzzle and other accoutrements.
I am more of a single shot enthusiast & accumulator than a Winchester collector. To me, an 1885 with a Pope barrel is worth much more than the same rifle with a Winchester factory barrel. But it depends a lot on which Pope barrel it is and on the condition of the bore. Bore condition is paramount. Is it in Schuetzen configuration? Does it have a false muzzle? Also, when was the Pope barrel made or when was the Winchester barrel rebored? All those details greatly influence value.
Winchester sold new smooth-bored (unrifled) barrels to Pope, and probably also sold him new barrels bored for smaller calibers. Pope rifled the barrels and finished them. If one of Pope’s customers wanted his 1885 rebarreled, buying a barrel from Winchester and then reboring it would have saved a lot of work. Would said barrel be marked Winchester? My guess is that it would not.
To me, an 1885 with the original .32-40 #3 or #4 barrel recut to .33/47 (with a perfect bore) would be worth at least 25 % more than the same rifle in original condition.
Winchesters with Stevens-Pope barrels will bring a premium, but not usually quite as high as a "real" Pope. Last year, the Amoskeag auction listed 2 Model 1895 NRA Muskets with Steven-Pope barrels, in relatively battered condition. Estimates were $1500-$2500 each. IIRC, one sold for $4600 and the other for $4800.
Pope barrels bring the highest premiums, but barrels by Zischang or Schoyen or Niedner or others will also bring substantial premiums.
I know that Winchester purists will disagree, but these are not rifles that were worked on by Bubba the blacksmith.
I recently heard of a Pope barreled Winchester that sold for 12 grand with the original loading tools by Pope also. I think the new owner is a frequenter on this site if he wants to chime in.
waterman said
Winchester sold new smooth-bored (unrifled) barrels to Pope, and probably also sold him new barrels bored for smaller calibers. Pope rifled the barrels and finished them. If one of Pope’s customers wanted his 1885 rebarreled, buying a barrel from Winchester and then reboring it would have saved a lot of work. Would said barrel be marked Winchester? My guess is that it would not.
What evidence do you have to support the statement that Pope bought un-rifled barrels from Winchester and that they were sold to Pope? Did you read that in a book somewhere or is there some form of documentation to support it?
Why wouldn’t Pope simply just go to his pile of "barrel stock" that he used for barreling muskets and other such guns?
I have seen Pope barrels on Winchester guns and have seen Pope’s stamp on re-rifled original Winchester barrels. That said, It just seems a little odd to me that Pope would need to purchase barrels from Winchester. It wouldn’t take him 2 minutes if that to remove a factory barrel to then re-rifle it.
If anyone considers themselves a Winchester Purist, I would like to hear there opinion of Pope barreled Winchesters.
Just being curious gentlemen, and not trying to stir the pot or anything.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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Maverick,
Pope did order smooth bore barreled Model 1885 rifles from Winchester. There are a number of them listed in the factory warehouse ledgers.
Model 1885 Scheutzen Rifles with a Pope barrel, and Pope sights are worth a premium. Exactly how much depends on the rifle itself, and the buyer. As a serious Model 1885 collector myself, I would pay an extra 10-15% for a fine condition Pope rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Pope did order smooth bore barreled Model 1885 rifles from Winchester. There are a number of them listed in the factory warehouse ledgers.Bert
I take it he ordered the whole rifle or did he merely order barrels? Or both?
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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maverick said
I take it he ordered the whole rifle or did he merely order barrels? Or both?
Maverick
It varied, but most often he ordered nearly a whole rifle. I do not know if he ever ordered just a barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
And that’s why we have 1885s that were ordered with set triggers, cheek pieces, long range sights and smooth bores
what about other models? I do believe I recall seeing some 1886s with Pope’s stamp on the barrel. Have yall seen a bunch of those?
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I have seen them on Remington rolling block pistols,Krags and Springfield ’03’s but never on an 86.
I believe you gentlemen are correct, in there not being a Pope marked 86 barreled gun. I must of had my wires crossed and was thinking about W.F Sheard marked barrels or something to that effect.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I know this is an old thread but I have an two line A. O. Niedner Malden Mass marked Winchester 1885 barrel in 25-35 caliber. It is a #3 weight round barrel and has the “OF” marking which I believe means Outside Fitted barrel.
Is there any information at all available regarding the ordering of this barrel from Winchester by Mr. Niedner? Or any other information in general?
Thanks in advance for any feedback!
[email protected] said
I know this is an old thread but I have an two line A. O. Niedner Malden Mass marked Winchester 1885 barrel in 25-35 caliber. It is a #3 weight round barrel and has the “OF” marking which I believe means Outside Fitted barrel.
Is there any information at all available regarding the ordering of this barrel from Winchester by Mr. Niedner? Or any other information in general?Thanks in advance for any feedback!
The “OF” marking does indicate that the barrel was purchased as a separate item. Unfortunately, there is no historical information documenting mail order parts.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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