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Comments on this for sale on GB
June 7, 2013
4:19 pm
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Guests

This looks like a pretty nice combination, but I am no expert of course. Do you think that the shipping crate is the real thing? The 25-35 looks nice. I think we have discussed this seller and his guns and crates/boxes before. Comments would be appreciated. Thanks, Peter

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=342757829

June 7, 2013
5:15 pm
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the labels on the box look to good to me for there age. i think at one time the rifle was refinished. just my opinion. lets see what the real experts say.

June 7, 2013
6:03 pm
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Tedk
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pday said
This looks like a pretty nice combination, but I am no expert of course. Do you think that the shipping crate is the real thing? The 25-35 looks nice. I think we have discussed this seller and his guns and crates/boxes before. Comments would be appreciated. Thanks, Peter

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=342757829

Don't believe that the green felt is original to the crate. There was a thread in the Winchester Collectors Forum on 24hourcampfire a few weeks ago re. a pre64 M70 Super Grade this seller had on GB.

June 7, 2013
7:02 pm
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I don't see evidence of refinishing on gun - looks okay. Green felt looks to be new, as does the label on box. Box itself may be original Winchester. ???

June 7, 2013
7:24 pm
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Tedk
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The seller also currently has a 1949 Model 71 Deluxe listed with a box that I believe is not correct for the gun.

June 7, 2013
9:14 pm
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Kingston, WA
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If you pay any attention at all to this seller, he has listed more that (40) NIB Winchesters in the past few years on Gunbroker. It is my personal opinion that he is manufacturing the boxes, hang tags, and other paperwork. It is simply not possible for one seller to have acquired that many old Winchesters with their original boxes.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
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June 7, 2013
9:22 pm
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Kingston, WA
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Tedk said
The seller also currently has a 1949 Model 71 Deluxe listed with a box that I believe is not correct for the gun.

Ted,

The Model 71 in question was listed on Guns International back in 2011 by a different seller (without a box), and it was clearly refinished at that time. Eric Icenogle (IsaBaily2009) apparently bought it, and he is selling items for an accomplished "faker".

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

June 8, 2013
4:53 am
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This is so much a fake it isn't even funny! If the seller wants to fake one, he should at least try and do a better job of it!

First, I would expect the wood to appear more in keeping with a 108 year old crate. Secondly, the crate should look like this:

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/original-winchester-crate.htm

or this:

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/1892-winchester-rifle-original-crate-mint.htm

The felt would never have existed on such a crate. Bright red lettering, I think, came MUCH later.

I would have expected the rifle to be pristine! This one is not. Not to say there couldn't be a rifle out there with it's original crate that was used some, or even a lot, but most you see are 100% or close to it. If a Winchester was used, the crate usually just got discarded.

And, finally, here is the nail in the coffin as far as this being original:

The Railway Express Agency did not even exist until 1917. This rifle dates to 1905.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Express_Agency

By 1900 there were four principal railway express companies: Adams Express Company, Southern Express Company, American Express Company, and Wells Fargo.

Need I say more?

June 8, 2013
9:00 am
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Bert's right. This guy's had more old Winchesters with boxes/crates than most guys have SEEN in a lifetime of collecting. It just isn't possible.

June 8, 2013
10:31 am
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The end label on this crate is a fake. Several features are not correct and the condition of the label does not match it's alleged age (the label looks new). I am going to post some information on fake Model 70 end labels in a separate thread. Some of the information I'll provide carries over to other Winchester models.

From the photos of the M94 in question (all 116 of them!) I'd say this rifle's condition is much lower than described. To my eyes, it looks like an 80-85% rifle at best--certainly not 95%. The bluing shows a lot of wear/fading and the wood shows a lot of use. If it was an original rifle with its original crate, why buy it? The whole point of owning a NIB (or NIC) rifle is to have something that's "new" or close to it. And how can you possibly price an 80% rifle in it's crate? I guess it boils down to the crate's worth by itself plus the value of the rifle. The combination certainly does not warrant the usual premium attached to a NIB rifle.

June 8, 2013
10:51 am
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Check the Gunbroker feedback on this seller--for some of his recent sales (Model 90 and Model 94s) of NIB rifles the end labels are fakes like the M94 in question here.

Amazingly, he has no negative feedback for 191 sales! What will these buyers think and do when they discover they own high priced fakes?

June 8, 2013
3:32 pm
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Guests

I agree with the 80-85% condition on the gun verses what the seller says. I also certainly agree that the paper work and the crate are probably fake. It is my opinion that the gun, if as described in the 80-85% condition is worth $2600.00-3500.00. It is a pretty nice gun and in a rare caliber, and probably the most desired by collectors. If you disagree...try and find one like it, in that condition for any less. Everything else is the crate and paperwork which most people do not recognize to be fake, or don't care. It does looks pretty good, so I would guess they don't care. It will fool a lot of collectors, and it is nice eye candy. Down the road, they'll just find another buyer who doesn't care either, and away they go. Do ya think these auction Co's are going to describe the crate and paper work as fake? Not and get the customers business they won't. Just my opinion of course. Peter

June 8, 2013
8:48 pm
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Some buyers might not care if the box or crate is original. There are also buyers for re-finished guns. BUT...the problem comes when they pay prices identical to those for factory originals. When it comes time to liquidate and the truth comes out it's easy to say that you can find a buyer who doesn't care but at what price? Good luck with that.

It's pretty disturbing to serious collectors to see fakes selling for prices identical to originals. And when large numbers of fakes are sold it devalues originals. For example, there are only a tiny number of original M70 Super Grades in 300 Savage. If there are an equal number of well done fakes, now there are twice as many in total floating around which decreases the perceived rarity of originals.

We all need to do what we can to educate others on the problems of fakes and frauds.

June 8, 2013
10:33 pm
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I wrote and asked the seller about he label and here is the answer I got back

Larry,

Thank you for your question. I am aware that there is a forum on WACA regarding this Winchester. Here is the link to the accurate information regarding Railway Express Agency: http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/d8260.htm

From this accurate website, you will see that the railway express agency has been around since 1899.

As you probably know, Wikipedia is often incomplete or inaccurate with their information. Google Wikipedia accuracy and you will see that they are wrong or inaccurate with their information on many occasions.

I suggest in the future, you do your own research and not simply blindly follow the advice of or opinions of novices trying to be experts on the forums. Further, my feedback speaks for itself. Thank you again. Best Regards.

June 8, 2013
11:14 pm
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Peter,
I had too many Irish whiskeys tonight, but you have to stop telling us you “are not an expert (295 posts)”. You’re looking at one hundred and what photos and know this posters’ history and are having doubts? I’m looking at one poor photo of what I think is a rear Win. but it’s not on GB and I wonder, what the hell is an expert here. I’m one of these guys who buys but doesn’t sell and I’m starting to have trouble distinguishing between collectors and buyers/sellers on this site of supposed collectors. It’s two in the morning and I think I over stayed my welcome. Good night. 🙄
Gene

June 8, 2013
11:25 pm
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The seller apparently does not know how to read very well. The source he quotes as being the "accurate" source of information for the "Railway Express Agency" clearly states that the company did not exist under the name on the label on that crate until 1929.

"On November 1, 1866 Wells Fargo & Co. purchased the stage and Pony Express operations from Ben Holladay. At this time, there were several express companies; however, by 1914 there were only seven. During World War I these seven companies were consolidated at the direction of the Federal Government into one nationwide organization, the American Railway Express Agency. [color=blue:4de1f3117a]In 1929 the nation's railroads bought the express business and changed the name to Railway Express Agency, Inc.[/color:4de1f3117a] " end quote

The end label with the "9412" is absolutely bogus. Winchester had not yet began using catalog order numbers in the year 1906.

Also of consideration, is the why would a "guard" gun be a Sporting Rifle verus a Carbine? Additionally, why would it be a 25-35 WCF versus the much more potent (and common) 30 WCF?

Again, the entire auction listing is bogus, and anyone who is ignorant enough to bid on that rifle is a fool.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
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June 9, 2013
1:04 am
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Ontario Canada
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This site with its info sharing is a great way to get educated , and reduce fraud , which used to be a much slower and painful (costly ) process . Soon sellers will realize there is a limit to what they can get away with , and become more honest by necessity , much the same as a Businessman in a small town , where word gets around quick

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June 9, 2013
5:22 am
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Gene, we should have been drinking together, and maybe I would understand your post better. You are correct, I have almost 200 posts, but that, in my opinion, does not make me an expert on anything. I have been in trouble in the past for acting like I know something, when it turns out I don't. I started this post to learn what is real and not real here so I could maybe recognize it in the future and not get burned. I also think others like to learn from a post like this. Yes, I looked at 200 pictures of the item, but that alone does not give me enough information as to whether this item is original or a fake. The crate and paperwork looked good (to good maybe) to me, and it was a learning lesson for me to listen to opinions, and have the folks point out why they thought certain items were not real. I don't agree with selling fakes as original, and think doing so reflects on the collecting world in a negative way. I would never buy it knowing it were a fake. If I found a seller was selling fake items, I would then be more than a little suspecious of the seller in the future. As far as whether I am a buyer/seller/collector, I am all of those. First off, I am a collector, but not a rich one by any means. So I buy one for my collection because I like it, or to update one I have, but in order to do that I might have to sell one...you see how easy it is for poor folks to become all three? This forum is sponsered by The Winchester Arms Collectors Association, but I'm sure they don't mind if you are a collector, seller, buyer, or even a dealer and belong to this forum. Hope your headache is not to bad this morning. Best regards, Peter

June 9, 2013
7:00 am
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The seller of that M71 is not the one who had the paper boxes made up and faked the gun. It was a guy from the East Coast who recently passed away. He is the guy who put up NIB M61, 62, 63, 71, 42, and12s. I wouldn't touch a NIB of any of these models with a ten foot pole. He flooded the market with them and phony manufacturing orders too. Oh I almost forgot, M70s also.

June 9, 2013
9:15 am
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I have a question for Bert H. You call this a "guard gun" in one of your posts. I have looked and looked and do not see any mention of that in the listing or the literature/paperwork. What are you refering to if I can ask? Thanks, Peter

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