Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Offline
Spectacular find! How in the world did you ever come across this? That small scrap piece of paper solved one hell of a mystery regarding this peculiar group of carbines. Looks like mine is 1 of the 751 of the 20″ variation.
Don
Nice find Brady, thanks for posting the link. I made sense that they would be using up 30-06 barrels.
Bert or Rick: any idea if there any hybrids serialized after October 1928 in your survey?
Bert H. said
It could be that Winchester did some ballistic testing for the 30 WCF cartridge in the 30-06 barrels before making the decision to use them for the Model 94 Carbine.
Bert
You will want to read The Bellemore Family Part Two in the Winter 2017 magazine. The note might be referring to Albert Bellemore. He became became foreman of the barrel shop around 1919 according to Dan’s article.
Brad Dunbar said
Nice find Brady, thanks for posting the link. I made sense that they would be using up 30-06 barrels.
Bert or Rick: any idea if there any hybrids serialized after October 1928 in your survey?
Brad,
Just (1), and it was serialized November 12th, 1928. It was assembled as a Type-3 (22-inch barrel), with the dovetailed ramp front sight. I will post a current copy of the survey later today.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Brady:
Yes, I agree. Looking again at the note, the “SCR” most probably refers to the plugged musket sight holes found on the Model 95 carbine barrels.
Good catch………….
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
I’ve never held one of these in my hands. Are the plugged holes for the musket sight welded over?
Steve,
No, they are not. Winchester simply put plug screws in them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Steve,
No, they are not. Winchester simply put plug screws in them
Bert – thanks for the info. I was wondering as I recall years ago I had a Winchester-Lee sporting rifle. It was originally built as a musket. When Winchester converted it to a sporting rifles, they welded up the musket sight barrel tap holes and then finished over them. I recall I could make out where they were.
Brad Dunbar said
You will want to read The Bellemore Family Part Two in the Winter 2017 magazine. The note might be referring to Albert Bellemore. He became became foreman of the barrel shop around 1919 according to Dan’s article.
Dan and I had a long talk at Cody about the Bellemore family at Winchester. These 2 articles are what I was having trouble with a few days ago trying to get them to open. Dan told me he has a lot of documents at home.
steve004 said
Deerhunter –That is one fantastic looking carbine. I’m very envious.
Thanks Steve. I was lucky enough to find this carbine about 6 years ago. Seller didn’t know what he had and had it advertised and priced the same as a regular SRC.
Don
Question for Bert:
With this new information regarding the production numbers, how much of a premium would you put on these 94/95 carbines vs. a standard 94 carbine in the same condition? Would you put a different premium on each variation based on scarcity? I’m thinking the 22-inch variation would have a higher premium than the others based on the lower production numbers. What do you think?
Don
deerhunter said
Question for Bert:With this new information regarding the production numbers, how much of a premium would you put on these 94/95 carbines vs. a standard 94 carbine in the same condition? Would you put a different premium on each variation based on scarcity? I’m thinking the 22-inch variation would have a higher premium than the others based on the lower production numbers. What do you think?
Don
Don,
While I believe that they are worth a premium, but they are still relatively unknown to the vast number of Winchester collectors & dealers, especially the fact that there are four variations of them. I do not know how much of a premium they would actually sell for, but would start at 100% for the most common variation, and ease it up to 200% for the Type 3 & 4 variations. I do believe that as the information and relative rarity of them spreads through the Winchester collecting continuum, the value numbers will rise. What would be really cool, is to find one of each variation type, and put them side-by-side in a WACA display… hint hint
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for your input Bert. It would be really something to assemble a collection of all 4 types. These seem to be pretty scarce out there in the market, but the hunt goes on. 1 down, 3 to go. My dad has the 22-inch version with the pinned front sight. Also has the rifle butt-stock. I believe it’s the only one known–formerly owned by Bob Renneberg and it’s pictured in his 1894 book.
Don
This is what I have in the survey thus far… still looking for more or any updated information.
| Serial No. | Var. | Caliber | Bbl Lgth | Bbl Band | Rec D&T | Butt Plate | Front Sight | PR Date | Bbl Date | Other Information |
| 1014894 | Type-3 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 1/26/1928 | ||
| 1017319 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 2/25/1928 | SRC | |
| 1024116 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 5/19/1928 | SRC | |
| 1024455 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 5/25/1928 | SRC | |
| 1025007 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/4/1928 | SRC | |
| 1025016 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/4/1928 | SRC | |
| 1025214 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/7/1928 | SRC | |
| 1025339 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/7/1928 | SRC | |
| 1025460 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/9/1928 | SRC | |
| 1025506 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/11/1928 | 28 | SRC |
| 1025936 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/16/1928 | 28 | SRC |
| 1026225 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 6/19/1928 | 28 | SRC |
| 1027124 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 6/30/1928 | SRC | |
| 1027816 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 7/16/1928 | SRC | |
| 1027817 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 7/16/1928 | SRC | |
| 1027842 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 7/16/1928 | SRC | |
| 1027955 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 7/17/1928 | SRC | |
| 1028070 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 7/18/1928 | SRC | |
| 1028178 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 7/23/1928 | SRC | |
| 1028299 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 7/23/1928 | SRC | |
| 1028466 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 7/27/1928 | SRC | |
| 1028788 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/1/1928 | SRC | |
| 1029141 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/3/1928 | SRC | |
| 1029502 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/8/1928 | SRC | |
| 1029742 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 8/13/1928 | SRC | |
| 1029850 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/14/1928 | SRC | |
| 1029852 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/14/1928 | SRC | |
| 1029940 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/14/1928 | SRC | |
| 1030775 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1030778 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 8/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031207 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 8/31/1928 | 28 | SRC |
| 1031403 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/6/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031413 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/6/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031481 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/7/1928 | 28 | SRC |
| 1031625 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/10/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031698 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/11/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031760 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/11/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031778 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/11/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031847 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/12/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031906 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/13/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031907 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/13/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031911 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/13/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031991 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/13/1928 | SRC | |
| 1031999 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/13/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032143 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/17/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032290 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/19/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032291 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/19/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032343 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/20/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032377 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/20/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032579 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032613 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032618 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Crescent | Pinned blade | 9/24/1928 | SRC, Rifle butt | |
| 1032624 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032663 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032687 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032697 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/24/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032795 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/25/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032813 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/25/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032835 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/25/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032846 | Type-1 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/25/1928 | SRC | |
| 1032942 | Type-3 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 9/26/1928 | SRC | |
| 1033178 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/27/1928 | SRC | |
| 1033180 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/27/1928 | SRC | |
| 1033259 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 9/28/1928 | SRC | |
| 1033422 | Type-2 | 30 W.C.F. | 20″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 10/1/1928 | SRC | |
| 1033541 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Crescent | Pinned blade | 10/2/1928 | SRC, Rifle butt | |
| 1033596 | Type-3 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 10/2/1928 | SRC | |
| 1034204 | Type-4 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Pinned blade | 10/17/1928 | SRC | |
| 1035596 | Type-3 | 30 W.C.F. | 22″ | Mag ring | No | Carbine | Dovetailed | 11/12/1928 | SRC |
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for posting Bert. Looks like you have two 22-inch type 4’s in the survey with a crescent butt. My dad has one of them.
Don
deerhunter said
Thanks for posting Bert. Looks like you have two 22-inch type 4’s in the survey with a crescent butt. My dad has one of them.Don
You are welcome, and by default, you actually have (2) of the (4) variations… tell you dad (from me) to get hot finding the other two!! It would make for a very neat display at a future Cody show.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
According to Rick, I have the nicest 94/5 20″ with pinned sight in the country. I would sell it if someone is wanting one. 4750.00
Rex
210.279.3673
Rex Mahan said
According to Rick, I have the nicest 94/5 20″ with pinned sight in the country. I would sell it if someone is wanting one. 4750.00Rex
210.279.3673
Rusty,
Without posting any pictures of it, how do we know if just Rick forgot to wear his glasses when he looked at it ?? (Yes, I am poking some fun at you… but we do want to see some pictures of it).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
1 Guest(s)
