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94/95 Carbine hybrid?
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January 8, 2014 - 2:13 pm
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"Road King" said
Just curious Bert, but in your survey have you any recorded from the Great White North (Canada). In over 45 years of collecting and gun dealing I don’t ever recall seeing any of these up here.

None that I am aware of. It appears that many of them ended up on the west coast of the U.S.

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January 8, 2014 - 2:19 pm
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twobit said
Bert wrote:

I believe that it simply stopped when Winchester had used up all of the leftover Model 95 .30 caliber barrels.

Does this imply that nobody wanted a parts cleanup Model 95 in .30 caliber after the production ended and the barrels could be used up on the correct model?

Michael

No, it does not imply anything. What I suspect, is that that Winchester had a lot of Model 95 .30 caliber Rifles and Carbines on hand when they halted regular production in 1928.

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January 8, 2014 - 2:33 pm
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Mike Hunter said
I believe the 95 was offered in catalogues until 33 or 34, so 5-6 years after the 95 parts “clean-up”.

Also keep in mind that Winchester should have kept parts on hand as spares, for both international and domestic sales. I imagine you could have gotten a replacement 95 barrel from Winchester as late as the 50s or 60s.

What I also find interesting is that there are 3 variants found so far: 20 inch using Model 95 carbine barrels, 20” barrels using Model 95 sporting rifle barrels and 22” barrels using Model 95 NRA musket barrels.

Can you imagine taking your 94 carbine to a Winchester repair center and telling them you want a replacement barrel just like the one that’s on it? Or asking a dealer to get you a 94 just like your buddy’s, with that cool barrel.

Mike,

The Model 95 was offered in the catalogs until 1935 just like the Model 86 (which was also discontinued in 1928). Winchester routinely listed many different models for years after they had been discontinued. I agree with you that they would have needed to keep some barrels on hand for return/repair work, but that does not mean that they did not have an excess of them on hand in 1928, and decided to use them elsewhere.

There are actually four known variants of the M94/95 hybrids. There are 22" (actually 21.75") barrels with pinned blade front sights, and some with a dovetail cut in the ramp. The same thing for the 20" barrels.

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January 8, 2014 - 2:40 pm
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twobit said
Bert wrote:

I believe that it simply stopped when Winchester had used up all of the leftover Model 95 .30 caliber barrels.

Does this imply that nobody wanted a parts cleanup Model 95 in .30 caliber after the production ended and the barrels could be used up on the correct model?

Michael

Probably more likely that they ran out of 95 Receivers 1st and had the left over barrels to deal with.

Maverick

I do not believe that was the case. Winchester continued manufacturing and serializing Model 95 receivers until December 12th, 1933 when they finally ended at serial number 425881. The last serial number in 1928 (12/29/1928) was 423779. From 1929 – 1933 (5-years production), 2,102 were made.

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January 8, 2014 - 3:08 pm
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Bert wrote:

I have (50) of them documented thus far, all of them in the 1014894 – 1035596 serial number range.

That is from Model 94 production during 1928 and concurrent with ongoing Model 95 production. If Winchester continued to manufacture another 2,102 Model 95’s over the next 5 years there were no "left over" barrels at that time since some of them were still being used.

Michael

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January 8, 2014 - 3:49 pm
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twobit said
That is from Model 94 production during 1928 and concurrent with ongoing Model 95 production. If Winchester continued to manufacture another 2,102 Model 95’s over the next 5 years there were no "left over" barrels at that time since some of them were still being used.

Michael

That is an excellent point.

Maverick

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January 8, 2014 - 6:45 pm
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twobit said
Bert wrote:

I have (50) of them documented thus far, all of them in the 1014894 – 1035596 serial number range.

That is from Model 94 production during 1928 and concurrent with ongoing Model 95 production. If Winchester continued to manufacture another 2,102 Model 95’s over the next 5 years there were no "left over" barrels at that time since some of them were still being used.

Michael

Michael,

I believe that you might need to think out side of the box a bit.

What we do know, is that production of the Model 95 came to a virtual stand still in June of 1928, with no production from June 23rd through December 28th (there was a small batch that went through the PR on the 29th of December).

What we do not know, is how many .30 caliber Model 95 barrels Winchester had stockpiled in their inventory at the time the plug was pulled on the Model 95.

Winchester’s habit was to manufacture the many and various production parts in batches, particularly the barrels, and at some point in early 1928, they undoubtedly had stockpiled a fair number of .30 caliber barrels. We do not know how many .30 caliber barrels they still had on hand in June of 1928 when they decided to pull the plug on the Model 95… for all we know, it may have been 5+ thousand.

We also do not know how many of the final 2,102 Model 95s manaufactured were .30 caliber. My guess (based on what I have observed) is that a high percentage of the late production rifles were .405s and the other calibers. So, and for arguments sake, let us assume that approximately 50% of the 2,102 were something other than .30 caliber. The other 50% (roughly 1,000) could very easliy have been assembled using the inventory from 1928.

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January 8, 2014 - 7:27 pm
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If possible can someone post a photo or two of the subject rifles? I have been following this interesting subject and find it intriguing. Thanks in advance.

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January 9, 2014 - 9:39 am
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Here is a link to a previous thread on this forum that contains photos of one of the subject carbines. Very interesting indeed.

http://www.winchestercollector.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1584&highlight=hybrid

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January 9, 2014 - 12:59 pm
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Thank you sir

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January 10, 2014 - 7:09 am
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Here are the photos from Rick Hill’s article on these carbines from the Winchester Collector magazine summer of 2012 issue.

http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/oldguy67/media/1894%20Hybrid/001_zpse08c48df.jpg.html

[Image Can Not Be Found]
http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/oldguy67/media/1894%20Hybrid/002_zpsca1b485e.jpg.html

[Image Can Not Be Found]
http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/oldguy67/media/1894%20Hybrid/003_zps0828f54c.jpg.html

[Image Can Not Be Found]

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January 10, 2014 - 7:38 am
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Paul:

Thanks for going to the effort to scan my article and post it to the Forum. The carbines photographed for the article are all from my collection.

Bert: You state:
[Image Can Not Be Found]

I know that it is reported that the 4th variation exists (22" barrel with dovetailed front sight) but I don’t believe it has ever been examined – just reported. I have all of Art Gogan’s original survey sheets and there is one such rifle that was reported by a member but not examined by Art so I have discounted it as I can’t explain the original of the barrel amongst the Model 95 offerings.

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January 10, 2014 - 7:59 am
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Rick

Through this whole post, only that small photo was shown at the very end so, I went to post the photos and I thought I had cropped out all the writing but, these are the ones that someone was asking about and I sent them the entire article. They were looking to get a copy of the Collector magazine article and I sent this to them until they found one that someone would part with. Hope this was OK with you.

Paul

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January 10, 2014 - 9:05 am
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Paul:

That’s great. Maybe some of the non-WACA members will be incented to join when they see the upgraded quality of the magazine!

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January 10, 2014 - 9:12 am
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At what point did Winchester make the decision to stop manufacturing the 95 in .30-06? And does that decision have anything to do with the appearance of 95 barrels on 94s?

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January 10, 2014 - 9:27 am
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Rick Hill said
Paul:

Thanks for going to the effort to scan my article and post it to the Forum. The carbines photographed for the article are all from my collection.

Bert: You state:
[Image Can Not Be Found]

I know that it is reported that the 4th variation exists (22" barrel with dovetailed front sight) but I don’t believe it has ever been examined – just reported. I have all of Art Gogan’s original survey sheets and there is one such rifle that was reported by a member but not examined by Art so I have discounted it as I can’t explain the original of the barrel amongst the Model 95 offerings.

Rick,

Yes, they have been examined. If you look at the recent survey document that I sent you, there are (4) of them listed. Art may have only found one of them, but I have found three more (22" barrel w/dovetailed front ramp sight). There are just (6) 22" barrels with the pinned front sight.

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January 10, 2014 - 9:43 am
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waterman said
At what point did Winchester make the decision to stop manufacturing the 95 in .30-06? And does that decision have anything to do with the appearance of 95 barrels on 94s?

Good question, and it also applies to the 30-03.

Bert

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January 13, 2014 - 12:18 am
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In the mid-1920s, Winchester had discontinued the 95 in .30-06 (when was the .30-03 discontinued?) because several rifles had been more or less destroyed when German military 7.92x57mm ammunition was fired in them. This was during the same time period when low number 1903 Springfields were failing. Winchester had already marketed the Model 54 in .30-06.

The appearance of some thousands of Winchester 95 barrels on the surplus market was not to Winchester’s advantage. First, the availability of surplus .30-06 barrels meant that shooters might decide to have their 95s rebarreled by a third party. That left Winchester with a product liability problem, with increased risk, but with no rewards other than the value of the barrels as scrap. Also, if someone rebarreled their 95, Winchester might well loose a potential Model 54 sale.

My suggestion is that the appearance of the 95/94 was a practical solution to risk management and marketing problems. When the 95 barrels were used up, Winchester could tell their customers that they no longer rebarreled 95s in .30-06. They could then sell the guy a Model 54.

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January 15, 2014 - 8:58 am
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Here are a couple of links for the 94/95 Variant. One has a 20" barrel. The other has a 21 1/2" barrel.
http://www.americanarmsandantiques.com/listings.php?id=258
http://www.americanarmsandantiques.com/listings.php?id=694

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January 19, 2014 - 9:24 am
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In pondering what factories did 100 years ago to avoid waste some interesting examples come to mind. I have two vintage Marlin 410 lever action shotguns. The earlier one has a barrel that is different from the other. I have learned that Marlin made the barresl for some of these out of .38/40 M1894 barrels. Now that is a fair bit of work to not waste something.

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