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I was lucky enough to acquire a high condition 94/95 hybrid carbine a few months ago, but haven’t had a chance to shoot it yet. Since the rate of twist is 1:10 on these guns (instead of the normal 1:12 for 30 WCF), does anyone know how this would affect accuracy? I would like to hear about any experiences shooting one of these, whether positive or negative.
Thanks,
Don
Don,
The faster twist rate should have very little (if any) effect on the accuracy, especially if you are shooting the 170-grain loads. Where it most likely would affect the accuracy are the really light bullets at higher velocities.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert. Regarding the lighter/high velocity bullets, would it be more accurate or less accurate with the 1:10 twist? Sorry, but I’m not real familiar with twist rates/bullet weights, etc. and their effect on accurracy. Is there a general rule of thumb to go by as far as how the rate of twist is related to bullet weight? Such as the larger the bullet, the more/less twist, etc?
Don,
The general rule of thumb is that heavier (longer) bullets require a faster twist rate. The 1:10 twist rate was determined to be optimum for the 220-gr .308 diameter bullet, whereas the 1:12 twist rate was optimum for the 150 – 170 grain .308 diameter bullets.
Lighter weight bullets can become unstable if the twist rate is too fast, and heavy bullets will not stabilize properly if the twist rate is too slow.
This is a good read – http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_twistrates_200809/
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Happy New Year everybody.
No diatribe.
All usual and readily visible inspector’s marks intact
Proofed AFTER Barrel setback.
Correct and correctly located barrel markings (on both sides) and consistent on both barrel lengths
All facets of the non-standard work consistent to the condition and age of the specimen
I have NOT inspected the under-barrel markings on any of these.
I directed one or possibly two more fellow collectors, each with one of these specimens (20") to Bert – I do not know if they followed up. My bad for not getting and relaying the info myself. I also don’t think he has the info on the Baltimore gun, nor do I, but that would bring the total into the 40s.
The End.
I appreciate the info Bert. I learn something new all the time on this forum and am very thankful. Now I just need to get out there and shoot it a few times. According to Bob R’s latest post, it looks like only about 40-50 of these have now been documented. Did Tom V. happen to meet up with you at the Reno show regarding his 94/95 carbine? At the time I came across it at the montly OAC show, it was not on your list.
Don,
Yes, Tom found me… but after he had sold it to a friend of mine. I brought that gun back with me to Washington.
I have (50) of them documented thus far, all of them in the 1014894 – 1035596 serial number range.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Glad to hear another one made the list. When this thread was originally posted a little over 4 years ago, it looks like only an additional 12 of these carbines were discovered (38 were documented as of Dec, 2009). With this in mind, do have any new estimates of how many of these hybrids Winchester may have produced based based on your updated surveys? Back in 2009, you estimated 1,000+ to be in existence, but I know you must have looked at thousands of rifles since…
deerhunter said
Glad to hear another one made the list. When this thread was originally posted a little over 4 years ago, it looks like only an additional 12 of these carbines were discovered (38 were documented as of Dec, 2009). With this in mind, do have any new estimates of how many of these hybrids Winchester may have produced based based on your updated surveys? Back in 2009, you estimated 1,000+ to be in existence, but I know you must have looked at thousands of rifles since…
Don,
Sorry for the delay in answering your most recent question.
I found that I needed to revise and update my extrapolation tables somewhat, and this is what I eventually arrived at;
In the year 1928, there was a verified total of 25,912 serial numbers manufactured. Based on the results of my research survey thus far, I have recorded (323) total serial numbers for the year 1928.
Of that number, (257) or 79.6% of them are Model 94s, and the remaining (66) or 20.4% are Model 55 Rifles.
Of the (257) that are Model 94s, (33) or 12.84% of them are Sporting Rifles, and (224) or 87.16% are Carbines.
Of the (224) Carbines, (50) or 22.32% of them are the M94/95 Hybrid Carbines. When calculated (extrapolated) based on the survey numbers, it indicates that as many as 4,011 Model 94/95 hybrids may exist.
I suspect that the actual number is going to be somewhat less than 4,000, but that it is more than likely at least 2,000. Only time (and more survey data) will tell as the research survey continues.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Very interesting and I appreciate all of your research. Thanks for providing the updated numbers. I’ll let you know if I come across any others while browsing the gun shows, etc. I keep looking for the other variants (pinned front sight / 22 inch barrel) to add to my collection. Would it be possible to get an updated serial number list when you have a chance?
Sure… send me an email and I will forward you a copy of the Excel spreadsheet.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Well I guess its been 4 years since I ask about these rifles. Has the collecting community come to any consensus as to whether Mother Winchester actually did produce them? In my humble opinion it at least seems plausible and at most practical.
I also enjoy the discussion and banter pertaining to the exchange of ideas. To all of those with knowledge please continue to share your thoughts and ideas.
I would say that I was the biggest skeptic when I came to the 94/95 hybrids. Four years later, I’m willing to concede that these are factory produced.
My only question now would be why?
I know that it’s been brought up previously in this thread that Winchester was frugal, and that the company as a whole was going thru a financial hardship. I’m not sure I fully agree with this position, at least from the viewpoint of Winchester’s upper management.
Generally a good indicator of how the upper management feels about a company’s financial health is employment numbers. When they feel good they hire and expand, when they feel not so good, they maintain status quo or let people go.
When we look at Winchester’s employment numbers for the three years preceding the start of the Great Depression (29 Oct 1929), there was growth: 1926 (+6%), 1927 (+15%), 1928 (+12%). So if the upper management was trying to trim costs why were they hiring?
These hybrids were produced at the peak of their hiring.
Again, the start of the depression was 1929, and as expected, Winchester began to cut costs by downsizing it’s workforce: 1929 (-20%), 1930 (-18%) and 1931 (-21%).
So anyway, those are my thoughts ….. which really don’t get to why it was done.
Possibly a good idea by a lower level manager, and once brought to the attention of upper level management the practice was stopped.
Your thoughts?
Mike
Bert H. said
Sure… send me an email and I will forward you a copy of the Excel spreadsheet.Bert
Just sent you an e-mail. Thanks again Bert.
Do you think these could have been offered/sold to employees as "factory seconds"?
Mike,
I believe that it simply stopped when Winchester had used up all of the leftover Model 95 .30 caliber barrels.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Just curious Bert, but in your survey have you any recorded from the Great White North (Canada). In over 45 years of collecting and gun dealing I don’t ever recall seeing any of these up here.
Bert wrote:
I believe that it simply stopped when Winchester had used up all of the leftover Model 95 .30 caliber barrels.
Does this imply that nobody wanted a parts cleanup Model 95 in .30 caliber after the production ended and the barrels could be used up on the correct model?
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Bert wrote:I believe that it simply stopped when Winchester had used up all of the leftover Model 95 .30 caliber barrels.
Does this imply that nobody wanted a parts cleanup Model 95 in .30 caliber after the production ended and the barrels could be used up on the correct model?
Michael
Probably more likely that they ran out of 95 Receivers 1st and had the left over barrels to deal with.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I believe the 95 was offered in catalogues until 33 or 34, so 5-6 years after the 95 parts “clean-up”.
Also keep in mind that Winchester should have kept parts on hand as spares, for both international and domestic sales. I imagine you could have gotten a replacement 95 barrel from Winchester as late as the 50s or 60s.
What I also find interesting is that there are 3 variants found so far: 20 inch using Model 95 carbine barrels, 20” barrels using Model 95 sporting rifle barrels and 22” barrels using Model 95 NRA musket barrels.
Can you imagine taking your 94 carbine to a Winchester repair center and telling them you want a replacement barrel just like the one that’s on it? Or asking a dealer to get you a 94 just like your buddy’s, with that cool barrel.
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