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70 Super Grade 22 hornet
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May 3, 2022 - 6:52 pm
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Hi all,

I’ve been offered a pre-64 Model 70 Super Grade chambered in 22 hornet. 

I’ve only received a small number of POOR pictures, and haven’t landed on a price point that would yet warrant an in person viewing. 

The seller mentioned there only being 300 and change of this configuration having been produced…

That seemed like a low production number to me and I’ll be away from my Rule book for a while to check (although I don’t remember with certainty if that info is spelled out definitively in Roger’s book or not). 

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May 3, 2022 - 7:00 pm
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jsgwoodsman said

The seller mentioned there only being 300 and change of this configuration having been produced…
 

300 SG Hornets ?  Doesn’t sound right to me.

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May 3, 2022 - 7:03 pm
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Me either,

 

I seem to remember 22 hornet was one of the least rare of the SG chamberings. 

 

But I’ve been wrong before. 

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May 3, 2022 - 11:27 pm
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Hi jsgwoodsman-

Interesting “facts” you’re being quoted.  See if the seller will divulge his data source b/c I’d love to review it…  I’m not aware of any summative production figures by style/chambering on calibers that were there at the beginning (1936)…  I’d LOVE to see the source files he’s quoting… Assuming there are any…  Wink

Our WACA M70 survey (to date) has at least partial info on over 18,000 pre-64 M70s.  Here’s what I’ve got…  The Porter catalog shows (54) pre-64 M70 Standard Super Grade (24″ barrel) before S/N 217,000.  My later survey records (52) pre-64 M70 Standard Super Grades encompassing all S/Ns.  To be fair, I have not, as yet, reconciled the two lists to see how many of the S/Ns are in both datasets.  But you get the idea…  IF they were all unique S/Ns, we’d have 106 rifles recorded in that configuration in a set consisting of only about 3% of total production.  According to your guy’s numbers, that would mean that we’ve got the S/Ns of ONE THIRD of all the 22 HORNET Super Grades ever made.  I DOUBT THAT…  Wink

Heck… I currently own 3 M70 22 HORNET Super Grades and used to own two others.  Does that mean I’ve owned nearly 2% of the total ever made?  I DOUBT THAT TOO… Wink 

All that said, the 22 HORNET is a neat cartridge in the M70 (not very practical, but cool…) and a Super Grade in that chambering would be a nice thing to play with if legit… If you get pics and a S/N, please consider sending them to me for the survey…

Thanks!!!

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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May 4, 2022 - 5:34 pm
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Lou,

I’d hoped to hear from you. 

I can’t see it in the blurry photos but the seller states the serial number as:

281968

I’ll attach the photos in the next post. I hope nobody gets excited at the prospect of their viewing, as they aren’t very clear.

Thank you for the response!

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May 4, 2022 - 5:43 pm
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Here the the 4 pictures I have. And likely all I will receive. An in person viewing is available and would be utilized prior to any money exchange. 

if you click on each picture 2-3 times it will pull up a larger version of the picture – although no more clear. 
https://i.postimg.cc/jLCYd3Cs/7922-CA44-4218-4772-9-EA7-B6-B57-FA220-CC.jpgImage Enlarger
https://i.postimg.cc/rd1vYvZ9/70-AFF549-9616-429-F-84-D6-6-F01675-BB143.jpgImage Enlarger
https://i.postimg.cc/ykD2zJrx/7897-A509-4-E42-42-EA-BE9-E-91-CEB4-FBB154.jpgImage Enlarger

This last picture shows what is supposed to be the biggest detractor on the rifle which is a rub/scratch in the right side of the muzzle end of the barrel just rear of the front sight ramp. 

It’s otherwise claimed to be a solid 95% and original rifle.  That would need an in person handling to determine of course. 
https://i.postimg.cc/MXPg405g/626-F4313-8338-4301-B4-C0-CABB40-EE32-E6.jpgImage Enlarger

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May 5, 2022 - 4:03 am
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Hi jsg-

You are right that the low res pics don’t show much, beyond that I don’t see anything clearly wrong.  If you’re serious, it’s probably worth a first hand look…

Thanks, BTW, for the serial number that I can add to the survey…  Laugh  One interesting thing to note (not bad).  The rifle (1954 PR date) appears to have a solid bolt handle, which makes it a type III-2 (probably) at a time when the III-3 (hollow knob) was predominate. 

This actually fits…  In 1950-51, Winchester was going through a “Firearms Simplification Program” to decrease the number of offerings.  This applied to all their guns, not just M70s (there are a couple corporate documents in the McCracken Library that bear this out), and the 22 HORNET chambering in the M70 was targeted for discontinuation b/c of it’s specialized components, i.e. bolt, magazine box, etc. They cost money to make and the HORNET was not a huge seller…. Wink As it turned out, the HORNET was made a “Prior Sale Only” item for a couple years then came back to the catalog for a while before being finally dropped. But the net result is that I’ve never seen a 22 HORNET with a hollow bolt knob, even though there are 22 HORNETs in the survey that go up into the 400XXX+ serial number range.  They all seem to have been assembled from bolt parts made before 1952-53…

It would be interesting (but irrelevant insofar as determining authenticity of the subject gun) to know the shape of the cheekpiece (early oval or later “full fashioned”).  1954 was also a big “barrel clean-up” year in which Winchester was getting rid of a lot of spare parts by assembling rifles and selling (dumping) them through jobbers like Hudson’s Sporting Goods in New York.  Short story is that a solid bolt knob and oval cheekpiece on a 22 HORNET Super with a 1954 S/N would be expected, NOT an anomaly…  If it were an ’06 it would be a different story… Wink

I’d like to know if seewin has ever seen a 22 HORNET M70 with a drilled bolt, b/c to date I have not…  LaughLaughLaugh

Best,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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May 5, 2022 - 12:57 pm
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Lou, To answer your question, I have never seen a Hornet with a drilled bolt handle that I can recall. I have owned numerous Hornets in the 250XXX –  300XXX range, and they were all solid bolt handle rifles. The latest I have ever owned was 409093. Unfortunately, I sold it to a dealer friend who resold it. I only owned it for a short period and did not record what type of bolt handle it had. 

Steve

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May 5, 2022 - 10:10 pm
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Thanks Steve!!!  You are the BEST!!! Laugh

In all my searching for the survey, I’ve not found a M70 22 HORNET with a drilled bolt handle. Given the “Firearms Simplification Program” document that’s in the on-line McCracken Library files, I suspect that the Winchester Execs decided to stop making HORNETs circa 1951 (before drilled bolts) because of the costly specialized bolt and magazine assemblies.  They must have had a bunch of parts, though, since the HORNET was cataloged (albeit Prior Sale Only) through 1956, and they clearly made some in 1957, your 409XXX being one…  S/N 427395 is the highest M70 22 HORNET S/N I’ve found so far and it too had a solid bolt!!!

Drilled HORNET bolts are possible, of course, as is anything with Winchester.  But I’ve not found one….  Reminds me (rambling here) of a question that came up in the context of Jeff’s M75 book research, which was when did the M43 barrel change to a silver brazed ramp.  There’s a Winchester blueprint of the barrel contour (one of yours I’m sure), with brazed ramp, stating the contour was used on the M43 as well as the M75 Sporter.  

Well… I’d NEVER seen a M43 with a soldered ramp and IIRC Bert (who’s doing the M43 survey!!!) had not either…  You KNOW where this is going… Wink  I stated the opinion that the blueprint represented something that was drawn but never made in a M43.  WRONG, of course!!!  Here’s one…

00.jpegImage Enlarger08.jpegImage Enlarger

The S/N is 62011.  PR date is Nov 16, 1953 according to Bert’s M43 records, making it one of the last M43s made, probably using the one of the last batch of M43 barrels.  And yes, it’s a 22 HORNET… WhoDaThunkIt???? Wink

Best,

Lou 

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WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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January 17, 2023 - 3:59 am
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I just picked up this 22 Hornet Super Grade and thought I would post it on the 22 Hornet thread…

 

https://i.imgur.com/6WlbRM0.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/GUFUvdM.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/Ve7jeQb.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/guhzQZb.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/tS7E8gr.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/1GZJR27.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/bLDVMTx.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/di4mzRE.jpgImage Enlarger

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