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I haven’t seen this before: 2 different proof mark on the barrel but only 1 on the receiver. This is on an 1894 Winchester rifle made in 1914. I suspect it means the rifle was rebarreled with a factory barrel but done by a gunsmith, not by Winchester. Can someone enlighten me on these marking?
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
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Wayne,
The circle P proof means its is a barrel that was sent out from the factory for field replacement.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks, Bob. These markings are on a rifle that’s being offered online. The seller doesn’t mention the barrel has been replaced but I thought the price was a bit too low for it to be an original configuration.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I personally suspect that the second proof mark on the barrel was added after the fact (not factory). As Bob mentioned, the “P” in the circle indicates that it is a mail order replacement barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I’m feeling the answer to my question is obvious to most members here, but I’m going to ask:
Why add the proof stamp to a barrel that already shows it is a Winchester replacement? Practicing for future forgery?
FromTheWoods said
I’m feeling the answer to my question is obvious to most members here, but I’m going to ask:Why add the proof stamp to a barrel that already shows it is a Winchester replacement? Practicing for future forgery?
Winchester normally proofed a mail order barrel. The one pictured in the first post is just a ugly stamp job.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
FromTheWoods said
I’m feeling the answer to my question is obvious to most members here, but I’m going to ask:Why add the proof stamp to a barrel that already shows it is a Winchester replacement? Practicing for future forgery?
In my opinion, it is not a “Winchester” replacement. That barrel was replaced by someone else. Note that the “P” proof mark stamp is very clean looking (professionally stamped). The “WP” proof stamp is sloppy (non professionally) stamped. I suspect it was added after the fact in an attempt to make it appear that Winchester installed the mail order replacement barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
The PW proof being added is certainly a legit possibility. But it is also possible that Winchester took a mail order P oval proofed barrel and used that in a factory done rebarreling job. The new double struck PW could/would have been added at that time. The first proof is done clean and nice, the second done by another workman and not as nice. Double struck proofs are common on original Winchester rifles so that is no indicator of factory or not. Perfectly struck but fake PW proofs can be done by many, many gunsmith’s so a clean PW is also no guarantee.
I’m a little confused here…it was my understanding that if one was to send one of these old rifles back to the factory for a new barrel, the factory would install the barrel and stamp it with a W/P proof to signify the barrel was a Winchester barrel. If a barrel was sent out of the factory for installation by a gunsmith or someone else, then the barrel would get a W/P proof indicating it was a Winchester barrel, and also a circle “P” proof indicating that it was put on outside the factory. Is that correct or am I forgetting something here? Thanks
Peter,
You are correct but the WP proof is not to tell its a Winchester barrel, it was put on after the barrel passed the proof firing test.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Winchester normally proofed a mail order barrel. The one pictured in the first post is just a ugly stamp job.
Bob
I would have to agree with Bob on his statement above. Why wouldn’t Winchester put the W/P proof mark on their barrel, to indicate that it was inspected and proofed as a factory product.
I would imagine that Winchester, just went to the Barrel bin with already made up barrels, that were proofed with the W/P, awaiting factory assembly, for that specific Barrel.
When a mail order came in for a replacement barrel, Winchester then proofed it with the Circle P , indicating it was sent out through the mail to whoever (not factory) for replacement.
If you take notice, the Oval W/P on the receiver is more circular, than the one on the barrel, which is more Oval (like the W/P doesn’t even fit in it) wish I could transpose the two stamps. This might be the cause of time frame that the barrel was ordered and shipped out,(difference of mfg date of the receiver and barrel) .
Also look at the barrel stamps, it appears that the same person stamped it. Both markings are offset to the right, (deeper impressions of the stamp) I would surmise that the barrel was just laid on the work bench and stamped , without holding the barrel in a vise or having another worker hold it while it’s being stamped.
I would agree with Bert’s statement had he said, (that it was not a Winchester Factory Replaced Barrel) no offense there Bert, I think that is what you were implying just trying to put things into perspective. To clarify, the complete rifle was not sent back to the Winchester Factory for a replacement barrel, ie. change of caliber, wanted a octagon barrel, magazine tube shorter or longer than original, or any other reason the barrel might have to be replaced.
So in reality, these are only my thoughts (opinion) on the Winchester in question with the markings as such, maybe if it was disassembled there is a barrel date stamped on it as to when it was made.
From the Twilight Zone, I hope ya’ll don’t think I am to far out there,
hokie
Wayne, I think you had the correct idea as to the markings. It’s always nice to post a question for different points of view from other members.
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November 7, 2015
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Eagle said
I’m a little confused here…it was my understanding that if one was to send one of these old rifles back to the factory for a new barrel, the factory would install the barrel and stamp it with a W/P proof to signify the barrel was a Winchester barrel. If a barrel was sent out of the factory for installation by a gunsmith or someone else, then the barrel would get a W/P proof indicating it was a Winchester barrel, and also a circle “P” proof indicating that it was put on outside the factory. Is that correct or am I forgetting something here? Thanks
It’s my recollection that if a rifle like this one was returned to Winchester for re-barreling there would likely be a second proof on the receiver.
I have never seen an old Winchester with two W/P proofs on the receiver if that’s what you are saying.
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
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Eagle said
I have never seen an old Winchester with two W/P proofs on the receiver if that’s what you are saying.
Can’t say I have either, was trying to find where I read that and can’t find it at the moment. Thought it was the Renneberg or Madis book but didn’t find it today. May have misunderstood a discussion of barrels with two proof marks. This thread and the one linked above (and another linked in that thread) has me studying a couple of rifles with no visible proof marks. Way off-topic so I’ll study on it a bit more and start another thread.
Here’s a pretty extreme example of a double-struck proof-mark on the receiver. I’m assuming the stamp wandered when it was originally struck at the factory since it’s nearly identical to the proof-mark on the barrel.
CJS57 said
The PW proof being added is certainly a legit possibility. But it is also possible that Winchester took a mail order P oval proofed barrel and used that in a factory done rebarreling job. The new double struck PW could/would have been added at that time. The first proof is done clean and nice, the second done by another workman and not as nice. Double struck proofs are common on original Winchester rifles so that is no indicator of factory or not. Perfectly struck but fake PW proofs can be done by many, many gunsmith’s so a clean PW is also no guarantee.
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Sad a fine company would sell an instrument used in forgery.
Winchester Proof Mark Hand Stamp
Hardened steel stamp for use on wood, metal or leather surfaces. Features the letters P and W in an oval. Commonly found on the breech end of most Winchester firearm barrels including models 12 and 97 trench and riot guns. Use for restoration purposes only. Manufactured by Numrich Gun Parts Corporation.
Image Product # Manufacturer Model Description
View Larger Image 850750 WINCHESTER 97 SOLID FRAME, 97 TAKEDOWN, 12 Proofmark Hand Stamp
Our Price: $84.80
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
Newbe here,
I own a model 1886, .50 Express. It has 2 proof marks on the barrel. It was drilled and tapped on the barrel for a scope, one of the screw holes going through the proof mark obliterating about half of it. A second proof was added, and that leads me to believe the drilling and tapping may have been done at the factory. My reasoning being, if some gunsmith out in the sticks did the sacrilege ( the drilling and tapping) why bother to send it back to Winchester to have it reproofed? I always though it was done way back “when” because, as I remember it the hole pattern looked like it was intended for one of those old scopes that was very long. I personally have owned this rifle for more than 40 years, and the fellow I got it from had owned it for almost 40 years as well. I will have to dig it out to check it again.
It’s great to be able to talk with people about guns that don’t begin with “Glock”. Thanks!
John
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