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December 27, 2024
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Ok, I wasn’t exactly sure what he meant by Rogers Rules – I will look for one.
Dan #67288
January 20, 2023
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Deg said
Two things – 1. mine doesn’t have any faking crap going on does is? and 2 – what book or what can I read to see the difference between all of the different grades, I couldn’t tell one from the other.
Dan, Not to worry. Your rifle is the real McCoy and nobody is suggesting otherwise. It is one of about 6812 Standard style Model 70 rifles chambered in 243 WCF shipped before end of production in 1963. What’s more, it is in what appears to be fine, all original, unaltered condition.
Lou is our resident Guru of Heightened Awareness on all things Model 70. What he pointed out was that six thousand rifles is not “rare” — in collector-speak. The Featherweight style 243 was obviously more popular because 24,000 of those were shipped.
However, popular does not mean better:
Your rifle has a 24 inch barrel, whereas the Featherweight has a 22″ barrel. In a thirty caliber cartridge like the 308 WCF, a two inch reduction in barrel length doesn’t result in a really significant loss of velocity — about 80 to 100 foot seconds, say. But, narrowing the bore from 30 to 24 caliber while retaining the powder capacity of the 308 case, penalizes velocity to a greater extent. Varmint/deer cartridges thrive on longer barrels because they derive their terminal effectiveness from small bullets at high velocity. More is better. It is difficult (at prudent breech pressures) for a 243 WCF 100 grain bullet to reach a full 3000 foot seconds from the shorter 22″ barrel. The original published velocity for the 243 100 grain factory load was obtained in a 24″ barrel.
Does it matter? Not much, probably because most Whitetailed deer, the most common medium game taken with a 243, are killed at less than a hundred yards, even in the West. For the exceptions, however, using the 243 at its outer limit, say a buck to be taken at 300 REAL but unmeasured yards – a hell of a long way, in my book – a couple of hundred foot seconds can come in handy, in the form of flatter trajectory and better bullet performance.
For what a 6 millimeter offers, yours is the better rifle.
What I pushed Lou to talk about was the truly rarest style of the pre-64 Winchester Model 70, the Super Grade version of the Featherweight style. So few were made that those in high original condition are orders of magnitude more expensive than all other styles of the Model 70.
It’s the Collector’s Paradox: the most deeply unpopular version that nobody bought becomes sought after by collectors because it’s rare, which makes it expensive.
Enter Fagin. Like fake Picasso artworks, there may be more fake Super Grade Featherweights in existence than real ones.
Stick around on this forum and you’ll see one that has come up at auction and that a WACA member has spotted. It’s like when a murder of crows spots a bobcat cruising the neighborhood. You can’t hear yourself think for all the cawing and dive-bombing. Sometimes the seller gets the message.
I believe the treatise most Model 70 collectors rely on is Roger C. Rule’s book, The Rifleman’s Rifle: Winchester’s Model 70, 1936 – 1963. Original hard cover editions are now collectibles and very expensive in good condition. There is a perfectly useable paperback edition available for $75 USD.
I hope this helps a bit.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
August 8, 2024
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My Son has been hunting deer in Western, Pa with a Model 70 FW .243 for over 20 years. It just flattens deer! I was so impressed after I saw him drop his first deer in its tracks. That I used the rifle in Wyoming with the same result on Prong horns, White tail, and Mule deer. With 100 grain bullet I get 3060 FPS. The funny thing was that when I shot the same load out of my 24 inch Standard Grade .243, thinking I would brake 3100 FPS. Well, I actually got less! Just under 3000 FPS. Regardless, I think that the .243 is underrated by many. Louis, that would be expensive, and a lot of work to fake a SGFW! I suppose it can happen that way. But most of the ones that I have seen that were questionable. We’re simply made up with a Feather Weight barreled action using Super Grade parts. Like steel trigger guards, and floor plates, and a regular Super Grade Stock made up to pass as a SGFW stock. Most always they are priced lower then what you would expect to pay for a SGFW. The Novice thinking he got a deal of a life time. Ends up buying a fake of a life time. The one positive is that he many become wiser adding Model 70s to his collection in the future.
January 20, 2023
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Bo, I think you’re absolutely right the 243 Winchester is underrated for game, particularly with the bullets available today, although plain old Speer HotCor worked just fine for me.
The barrel length thing is more theoretical than practical, I’ll admit. My first centerfire rifle (in 1966) was a new Remington 600 in 6mm Remington, with an 18.5″ barrel! Years later, my favorite deer rifle was a Ruger 77 International, same barrel length, in 250-3000 Savage. The vast majority of Texas Whitetails I’ve taken were with that little carbine, after I’d started hunting in the Cross Timbers and Rolling Plains where the distances are longer.
The late Warren Page, long time shooting editor of Field & Stream, was one of several wildcat cartridge designers who claimed he created the 243. In any event, he was the most effective promoter of the 6mm class and proved it many times over with a light rifle he had the great Monty Kennedy make up — with a 20″ barrel. Page hunted the World and his endorsement meant something.
I know that, at least in Texas, the 243 became wildly popular in the Fifties and still is, despite the plethora of new cartridge designs.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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Zebulon said
Bo, I think you’re absolutely right the 243 Winchester is underrated for game, particularly with the bullets available today, although plain old Speer HotCor worked just fine for me.
The barrel length thing is more theoretical than practical, I’ll admit. My first centerfire rifle (in 1966) was a new Remington 600 in 6mm Remington, with an 18.5″ barrel! Years later, my favorite deer rifle was a Ruger 77 International, same barrel length, in 250-3000 Savage. The vast majority of Texas Whitetails I’ve taken were with that little carbine, after I’d started hunting in the Cross Timbers and Rolling Plains where the distances are longer.
The late Warren Page, long time shooting editor of Field & Stream, was one of several wildcat cartridge designers who claimed he created the 243. In any event, he was the most effective promoter of the 6mm class and proved it many times over with a light rifle he had the great Monty Kennedy make up — with a 20″ barrel. Page hunted the World and his endorsement meant something.
I know that, at least in Texas, the 243 became wildly popular in the Fifties and still is, despite the plethora of new cartridge designs.
This might be blasphemy on my part, but I too once owned a very nice rifle in 243 Winchester… a Savage Model 99F (with the brass spool & counter). I unfortunately got talked into selling it 25-years ago (and still regret it today). Back mid 1960s, my dad purchased a brand Remington Model 700 in 6mm Remington for my mother to shoot Black-tail deer with on the Oregon coast… she was deadly accurate with that rifle with 90-grain handloads. I watched her drop a very nice 4-point Mule deer with it in 1972 (in eastern Oregon) at a measured distance of 250-yards… she shot him in the ear!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 5, 2014
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Hi Bob-
It is a lot of work to turn a M70 standard Featherweight into a passable Super Grade Featherweight, and most of the time people (used to) do the sort of half-assed stuff you’re describing. Nowadays I’m not so sure it would be that hard to come close(r) to the “real” thing… At least for the shop(s) that specialize in turning rough 30-06 Standard rifles into one-of-a-kind high dollar collector’s items.
My Dad once owned a fake 270 WIN SG FWT. It was composed of a genuine NOS Super Grade FWT stock and aluminum floor plate with a standard 270 WIN barreled action dropped in. Must have been done before Rule’s book came out b/c the only thing they did to the barreled action was to engine turn the bolt, extractor and follower. Still Du-Lite blued barrel and Win 103E silver bead front sight.
He never knew it was a fake… You won’t see it again b/c I permanently disassembled it. 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
January 20, 2023
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Lou, Only a guru of truly heightened awareness and a man of your moral strength would have disassembled the 270. I assume by “standard 270″ you mean a field grade Featherweight 22” barreled action sans rear sight bolster or bedding tension block, but with field grade aluminum floorplate and trigger guard. Otherwise, a blindfolded Joe Biden could have detected the fraud.
No, I would not have disassembled the fake 270 but would have kept it as a favorite hunting rifle — it had to have been attractive. A new Featherweight 270 is actually what Jack O’Connor handed over to Al Biesen to be restocked in the style of his “#1” rifle. My understanding is Biesen did not alter or reblue “#2” but bedded it intact into a new stock. JOC liked it so much he eventually sold #1 to a close friend and hunted with the #2. I have only seen photos of these two rifles but I suspect Biesen may have touched up the factory trigger and replaced the floorplate release with one of his design.
Had I owned it, I would have acquired a steel floorplate, had it installed, then taken the rifle to a competent gun engraver and engaged him or her to apply a modest amount of fine English scroll to the floorplate, in the center of which would have been the legend, “Caveat Emptor” in a suitable font. He or she would then apply the same legend to the receiver. On the underside of the barrel, hidden by the forearm, I would have had engraved, “This is not a real Super Grade.” I would then have had the barrel rust blued. [ Good engraving is never done “through the blue.” The late master E. C. Prudhomme railed against that atrocity to his students and in print.]
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
August 8, 2024
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Louis, That is perhaps correct that the current fakers have become harder to detect. But, they generally miss something. The rust blueing doesn’t match. The engine turn bolt, follower, and extractor are off. Just a few examples of what I have seen. They must know that the rarer examples will be checked with a fine tooth comb with the advanced collector. The novice is a different animal. If a rare Model 70 is priced to low. That should be a warning. The advanced collector understands this. The Novice not so much. Most fakes that I have seen in recent days have sold for much less then he real deal would sell for. Yes the Rule, and Whitaker book will help solve some of the mystery. But, not all of it. Sadly, the half-assed fake stuff as you call it. Still fools a lot of folks. Louis, you have done a lot to help educate the current collector. Now, they just need to listen.
January 20, 2023
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Once again and all.together:
“A fool and his money are soon party.”
“When in doubt, do without.”
“Don’t buy what you don’t understand.”
“Invest in a good library.”
“Look a lot before you buy anything.”
“Ask for help from your fellow WACA members.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
December 27, 2024
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Zebulon said
Deg said
Two things – 1. mine doesn’t have any faking crap going on does is? and 2 – what book or what can I read to see the difference between all of the different grades, I couldn’t tell one from the other.
Dan, Not to worry. Your rifle is the real McCoy and nobody is suggesting otherwise. It is one of about 6812 Standard style Model 70 rifles chambered in 243 WCF shipped before end of production in 1963. What’s more, it is in what appears to be fine, all original, unaltered condition.
Lou is our resident Guru of Heightened Awareness on all things Model 70. What he pointed out was that six thousand rifles is not “rare” — in collector-speak. The Featherweight style 243 was obviously more popular because 24,000 of those were shipped.
However, popular does not mean better:
Your rifle has a 24 inch barrel, whereas the Featherweight has a 22″ barrel. In a thirty caliber cartridge like the 308 WCF, a two inch reduction in barrel length doesn’t result in a really significant loss of velocity — about 80 to 100 foot seconds, say. But, narrowing the bore from 30 to 24 caliber while retaining the powder capacity of the 308 case, penalizes velocity to a greater extent. Varmint/deer cartridges thrive on longer barrels because they derive their terminal effectiveness from small bullets at high velocity. More is better. It is difficult (at prudent breech pressures) for a 243 WCF 100 grain bullet to reach a full 3000 foot seconds from the shorter 22″ barrel. The original published velocity for the 243 100 grain factory load was obtained in a 24″ barrel.
Does it matter? Not much, probably because most Whitetailed deer, the most common medium game taken with a 243, are killed at less than a hundred yards, even in the West. For the exceptions, however, using the 243 at its outer limit, say a buck to be taken at 300 REAL but unmeasured yards – a hell of a long way, in my book – a couple of hundred foot seconds can come in handy, in the form of flatter trajectory and better bullet performance.
For what a 6 millimeter offers, yours is the better rifle.
What I pushed Lou to talk about was the truly rarest style of the pre-64 Winchester Model 70, the Super Grade version of the Featherweight style. So few were made that those in high original condition are orders of magnitude more expensive than all other styles of the Model 70.
It’s the Collector’s Paradox: the most deeply unpopular version that nobody bought becomes sought after by collectors because it’s rare, which makes it expensive.
Enter Fagin. Like fake Picasso artworks, there may be more fake Super Grade Featherweights in existence than real ones.
Stick around on this forum and you’ll see one that has come up at auction and that a WACA member has spotted. It’s like when a murder of crows spots a bobcat cruising the neighborhood. You can’t hear yourself think for all the cawing and dive-bombing. Sometimes the seller gets the message.
I believe the treatise most Model 70 collectors rely on is Roger C. Rule’s book, The Rifleman’s Rifle: Winchester’s Model 70, 1936 – 1963. Original hard cover editions are now collectibles and very expensive in good condition. There is a perfectly useable paperback edition available for $75 USD.
I hope this helps a bit.
Very good – thank you. You mentioned the .243 WCF – I bought .243 WIN, is that correct or should I look for WCF, what is the difference and is WIN ok to shoot in this gun?
Dan #67288
August 8, 2024
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Deg, The barrels marked WCF were discontinued in 1950. Since the .243 was introduced in 1955. It will be marked . 243 Win. Some Collectors will refer to it as a .243 WCF ( Winchester Center Fire). It is kinda funny that even Today I will see somebody pick up and look a a Model 94 that has .30 WCF on the barrel, and they will ask the seller if they can still find ammo for the rifle. The Model 94 is in fact a .30/30 that was marked .30 WCF before 1950.
December 27, 2024
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Makes sense. I was sure WIN was fine, but that got me thinking…
Dan #67288
November 5, 2014
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Zeb-
Funny you should mention that…
The two genuine factory SG FWT take-off parts (stock and aluminum SG floor plate) were used to restore genuine Super Grade Featherweights with damaged or worn parts. One was a 30-06 SPRG with an added recoil pad. Not my guns, but real SG Featherweights. So I gave the parts away… True enough they went to improve the condition of two otherwise genuine guns (which some purists consider a sin in its own right), but they can’t be used to create a “better” fake…
However I do still have the Standard 270 WIN Featherweight barreled action with non-factory jeweled bolt. My intention has been to put it into a (refinished) low comb Standard Featherweight stock (b/c I like the NRA style stock) and replace all the aluminum (bottom metal and butt plate) with steel (b/c I like steel)… To that end, Tedk and I each had Pauline Muerrle engrave the simple 70-5 pattern scroll onto NOS steel floor plates. And before you get worked up about “fake” factory engraving by a factory engraver, we had Pauline sign her work on the inside of the plate.
But I’ve not gotten around to putting the rifle together yet… 
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
January 20, 2023
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Louis Luttrell said
Zeb-
Funny you should mention that…
The two genuine factory SG FWT take-off parts (stock and aluminum SG floor plate) were used to restore genuine Super Grade Featherweights with damaged or worn parts. One was a 30-06 SPRG with an added recoil pad. Not my guns, but real SG Featherweights. So I gave the parts away… True enough they went to improve the condition of two otherwise genuine guns (which some purists consider a sin in its own right), but they can’t be used to create a “better” fake…
However I do still have the Standard 270 WIN Featherweight barreled action with non-factory jeweled bolt. My intention has been to put it into a (refinished) low comb Standard Featherweight stock (b/c I like the NRA style stock) and replace all the aluminum (bottom metal and butt plate) with steel (b/c I like steel)… To that end, Tedk and I each had Pauline Muerrle engrave the simple 70-5 pattern scroll onto NOS steel floor plates. And before you get worked up about “fake” factory engraving by a factory engraver, we had Pauline sign her work on the inside of the plate.
But I’ve not gotten around to putting the rifle together yet…
Best,
Lou
Lou, I think your plan to revive the corpse of the defunct Fagingrade (copyright Zebulon 2025, all rights waived) is both morally correct and sound.
I think Pauline’s work is fine and adds value and elegance to any Model 70, whether it was done in New Haven under a Winchester custom work order or on her home work bench. Frankly, her work would stand alone whether she had been employed by Olin, USRAC, or Fast Freddy’s All Weather Undertaking, Engraving and Bait Shop.
Having used in the field both my 1950 low comb Supergrade and a 1956 Monte Carlo comb Featherweight (the one celebrated in last year’s Collector), I prefer the latter stock if the rifle is scoped. I’ve since un-scoped the SG and it now wears a Lyman 48 WJS-H.
But the 70-5 pattern is the one Ive always admired. It’s tasteful and just enough to show the engraver’s skill. Having lived in the Dallas area for a half-Century, a place not known for its restrained elegance in arms decoration, a well-executed 70-5 floorplate is, to my eye, like cool water to a man stranded in the desert.
Get the rifle assembled and photograph it, please. Life is short.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
December 27, 2024
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LZebulon said
Lou, I think your plan to revive the corpse of the defunct Fagingrade (copyright Zebulon 2025, all rights waived) is both morally correct and sound.
I think Pauline’s work is fine and adds value and elegance to any Model 70, whether it was done in New Haven under a Winchester custom work order or on her home work bench. Frankly, her work would stand alone whether she had been employed by Olin, USRAC, or Fast Freddy’s All Weather Undertaking, Engraving and Bait Shop.
Having used in the field both my 1950 low comb Supergrade and a 1956 Monte Carlo comb Featherweight (the one celebrated in last year’s Collector), I prefer the latter stock if the rifle is scoped. I’ve since un-scoped the SG and it now wears a Lyman 48 WJS-H.
But the 70-5 pattern is the one Ive always admired. It’s tasteful and just enough to show the engraver’s skill. Having lived in the Dallas area for a half-Century, a place not known for its restrained elegance in arms decoration, a well-executed 70-5 floorplate is, to my eye, like cool water to a man stranded in the desert.
Get the rifle assembled and photograph it, please. Life is short.
Well, if I ever get to where I know even just a mustard seed of what you boys know about Winchesters – I will be/would be a “purest”. I spect I am too old to obtain you all’s talents. However, with that said – what as much as I do know I am already a purest, same with cars, trucks, motorcycles, and even things I display. I want things as close to 100% as it came off the shelf. With that, if there was any engraving by Pauline, I’m confident it would all be top-notch work, but I would only accept it as original if it came with some kind of Winchester documentation. If she did it at home on her own – it’d be aftermarket. Same as a pinstriping on a car, it is either factory, or it is not – for me at least. Now, I have a 2017 4-Runner and I had the Toyota Dealer install a “factory” lift kit on it. Where did the parts come from Toyota or Rock Auto – I don’t know, so that is one place that can be a grey area for me. But, If I took that 4-Runner from the Dealer and went down to Big Jim’s offroad and they installed the lift kit and even got the parts from Toyota, it’d for sure be aftermarket. For Me.
Dan #67288
August 8, 2024
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Jack O’Connor would replace the aluminum bottom metal with steel bottom metal on his Model 70 FW rifles. Louis, I prefer the steel bottom metal as well. I guess we are in good company! If I found a regular FW rifle that has be switched out with steel bottom metal. Well, that would not bother me too much. I have a friend that has a .358 FW with steel bottom metal. He wanted to replace it with the original aluminum. I told him that if it was mine. Well, I would just leave it as it is. The exception would be of course the SGFW. I would expect to have the original parts on this rare rifle.
December 27, 2024
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So, if I liked the steel floorplate for using it, I would put it on but save the original aluminum plate – as long as I have the original parts and can put it back to original, unnoticeable, then I can live with that; much like the scope on my .243. I can peel it off and put it back to original, as best I can, as I know it. But if it is eye-candy, the aluminum plate stays! 
Dan #67288
January 20, 2023
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Let us bear in mind that Lou’s Featherweight 270 was a rouged up parts gun before the time his father bought it. It would take more than an aluminum floorplate to restore that phony “Super Grade” — all but the irrevocably modified barreled action of which Lou parted out to friends in need.
Once Humpty-Dumpty falls off the wall, he isn’t ever going to be in “original condition” again.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
December 27, 2024
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I support the project 
Dan #67288
November 5, 2014
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Hi Zeb and Deg-
As you both know, Pauline went to work for Winchester (apprenticing under Nick Kusmit) in 1979 and stayed through 1986. So it’s obvious that a “signed” piece of Pauline’s engraving on a Pre-64 M70 is an aftermarket/outside commission. There are certainly genuine in-house M21 Grand Americans, M12 Pigeon Grades, etc. that were done by Pauline, but not a Pre-64 M70. I just think it will “tastefully” dress up an already altered (jeweled) receiver.
I think that the only in-house engravers who could have done a pre-64 M70 were Alden George Ulrich (see the Spring 2025 Winchester Collector), John Kusmit, and Nick Kusmit. Anyone else’s work would have been “outsourced” or “aftermarket”…
Speaking of the 70-5 pattern. Here’s another of my Dad’s guns. It’s pictured in R.L.Wilson’s Second Edition Winchester Engraving book. It’s a 1949 270 WCF Super Grade (s/n 127935).
Pauline says this one was done by John Kusmit and that it was done as an “outside job”. I totally agree, as the gun has definitely been reblued after engraving (factory engravers worked on parts before they were blued in the first place). Furthermore, the stock is far to plain to be a Custom Shop special order and is checkered in a non-standard pattern. Interesting thing about the stock is that it is a Winchester factory Super Grade stock and the carving/checkering now on it cannot have been done to an already finished SG stock. Best guess (???) is that the stock was “liberated” from the factory after the first two coats of finish but before it was ever checkered… JK also did checkering/carving so it’s “possible” that he was the one who liberated the stock and checkered it, but there’s no way I know of proving/disproving it…
Except for the floor plate, this one is done in the 70-5 pattern. Kusmit added a gold ram to the floor plate in lieu of the scroll, but the trigger guard scroll is 70-5.
So this one ain’t worth much, but I’m keeping it!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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