Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
1950 22 Hornet
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Central Kansas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 203
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
September 24, 2022 - 10:16 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

The barrel stamp appears weak. Barrel proof looks raised around edge as one might expect however the under barrel caliber and date stamps have the same appearance as the barrel stampings. I don’t see evidence of refinishing. Was this characteristic of this vintage or is something fishy??

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/17239113

Darrin

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 471
Member Since:
March 12, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
September 24, 2022 - 10:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

All stampings look fine to me. The reason the barrel and receiver proofs are proud is because they were stamped after proof firing the gun, which was one of the last operations performed before packing. The other stampings were done prior to polishing/bluing. I have Hornet withing 75 units of yours and everything is identical. I assume you are aware that the trigger is not original and it appears a previous owner has added an external pull weight adjustment. Also, it appears rear sight has been replaced. It should have a Winchester 22G. Cannot tell for sure on the front sight without removing the hood.

Steve

Avatar
Central Kansas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 203
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
September 24, 2022 - 11:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks Steve, I suspected it was good but honestly I hadn’t noticed that before or had it explained. Does the trigger and rear sight affect the value to a large degree in your opinion? $400-600? It is a good looking gun overall I think.

Darrin

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 471
Member Since:
March 12, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
September 25, 2022 - 12:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Darrin, I would say the value is affected by the cost of replacing the trigger and sight with originals, probably $200. The nice thing is that neither modification was major and was easily fixable with original parts

.

It does look like a nice rifle.

Steve

Avatar
Central Kansas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 203
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
September 25, 2022 - 11:00 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

You are right Steve. Found an excellent cond. original trigger group for $49 and a 22G in perfect cond. $169. Now, see if I can get the big part done.

Darrin

Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1277
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
September 25, 2022 - 5:41 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Darrin

Good luck with your pursuit of a great looking Hornet. 

Here’s a M70 Hornet I have, but just a few years later – SN 293054    1954

IMG_3703-2.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1034
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
September 25, 2022 - 10:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Darrin-

Not that my opinion adds anything, but IMHO Steve is right (as always)…  Laugh  That looks like a very nice collector quality gun with only a couple minor/fixable issues…

FWIW… The under barrel stamps were applied when the barrel was chambered (before polishing) so got polished over twice.  They should never be rough and are often half polished out.  The exposed barrel roll marks were applied after first polishing but then polished again to remove any cratering from the roll die application.  So those should look polished over too.  Depth of the die impression is quite variable.  OTOH… The Winchester proof marks (and the electropenciled bolt serial number) were applied after the finished parts were assembled into a complete rifle and proofed.  So those should look rough/unblued.  I don’t see any issues with the marking on this gun…

The front sight should be a Win 103C 0.310″ tall.  Looks like that’s what’s there in the photo, but if not it’s another easy fix…

The problems with the gun, as Steve said, are that the 22G rear sight was replaced with a Lyman 16B, probably b/c a Win 22G would interfere with some scopes, and the trigger got polished, probably when somebody did the trigger modification job.  Both are easy fixes and would not stop me from buying the gun if I wanted it (which I don’t so no competition here!!!).  Good Luck!!!

Question for Gary (for the survey)…

Does your Hornet, S/N 293054, have a MC or low comb?  Also, is the bolt knob solid (type III-2) or drilled (type III-3)? 

Funny thing about the 22 HORNETs is that despite the fact that Winchester made a bunch of them in the 1950s, I don’t think I’ve ever seen one with a drilled bolt.  Based on documents in the McCrackin Library, it appears that the Hornet chambering got targeted for discontinuation as part of the “Firearms Simplification Program” of 1950 (too many specialized parts for too few sales).  I think that all (most???) of the ones made after 1952 (when drilled bolt handles started getting phased in) were made from parts already on hand…

Thanks Gents!!! Laugh

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1277
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
September 25, 2022 - 11:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Question for Gary (for the survey)…

Does your Hornet, S/N 293054, have a MC or low comb?  Also, is the bolt knob solid (type III-2) or drilled (type III-3)?  

Mine has the Monte Carlo stock and the bolt is not drilled.

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1034
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
September 25, 2022 - 11:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks, Gary!!!

The closest S/Ns I have to yours in my survey (where I keep such details) are S/Ns 289804, 293367 and 294345.  All those have LC stocks, but there are a bunch in the 224XXX to 225XXX range with MC stocks (first year MC), so they were surely making both in 1954.  By S/N 3008XX everything I’ve got recorded in Standard Hornet is MC. 

The bolt knob thing fits my preconception…  I’ve seen them as late as 410XXX to 427XXX (1957-58) and have yet to see one with a drilled bolt handle.

Best,

Lou  

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 74
Member Since:
June 18, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
September 25, 2022 - 11:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

there’s  a half hour left  to make  your mind up. I’m curious  where  the bolt stop is cut is?  and  Vue  proofs   with  year and caliber. also the graining  from sanding  the barrel,  turnin on a lathe?  i thout  their quality control was better  but it was a war year in Korea.20220325_13043615322.jpgImage Enlarger20220430_16495815649.jpgImage Enlarger  this is  from a Model 54   but  the bolt has   the same  Model 70  alterations. there’s added finish on the wood?

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 74
Member Since:
June 18, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
September 26, 2022 - 12:00 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

the  intergal ramp  front sights  were discontinued in post war  rifles ?

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 74
Member Since:
June 18, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
September 26, 2022 - 12:15 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

the  roll die  that marked the   barrel  looks  old and  broken  teeth, styles, itt’s not light  but  missing parts of  the lettering. may be  the end of  .22 hornet production   Rule’s book  would hold  the answers. 

Avatar
Central Kansas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 203
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
September 26, 2022 - 1:15 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thank you all for the useful information. I did get the bid. I will probably pick up the 22G, 3C elevator and original trigger set I found earlier. Louis I suppose you were able to get all the info. you need for your survey from the auction link. Was it in your survey yet?

Darrin

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 74
Member Since:
June 18, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
September 26, 2022 - 2:01 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

 Darrin –i looked at a 1952 barrel,  on ebay,  and marks and graining in the finish are both right,   it looks fine ,good luck with it.. guns from the 30’s  were   more polished barrels. i don’t own a pre war 70,  as yet.i can’t say  -i ‘m  limited . bunch of  54’s   now— enjoy  it–buy componants..

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1034
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
September 26, 2022 - 3:26 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Hi Darrin-

So you got it???  Congrats… Laugh That’s a nice one once you take care of the things Steve pointed out.  And the price didn’t look bad at all for today’s market…

One thing I particularly like about that piece is the oval (not “looped”) pistol grip contour on a type III (oval tang) gun. All these changes were gradual, and the more aesthetically satisfying (to me) oval pistol grip contour was carried on well into the type III period.  Just glancing at the survey, the bulk of the transition happened in the 130K serial number range where your rifle falls.  Laugh  There are looped pistol grip stocks as low as the 90,000s (even a few cloverleaf tang stocks with looped pistol grips – but that’s another story…) and after 140K it’s pretty much all looped…

Yes… That “Jack The Dog” listing has MUCH better than average photos, so I did get everything I like to record, even the under barrel markings.  If you will, check that the front sight is 0.310″ tall (it should be), but otherwise I’m good… Laugh  That S/N was not in the survey, but there are a goodly number close to it.

The closest Hornet’s I have to yours (meaning in my personal collection) are a couple of Super Grades at 127937 and 143711.  I also have an early SG that was formerly in vicvanb’s collection, S/N 26401, as well as early pre-war and 1948 transition Standard Rifles and a 1938 Carbine.  Too many M70 Hornets, I know, but I’m still looking for that elusive 22 Hornet Target rifle…  And I wouldn’t pass on a later one like Gary’s if it had the MC stock/Marbles 69 folding sight like his…

In reference to Ralph’s comments…  The M54 used the sear for a bolt stop and a beveled cut in the bottom of the bolt to catch it, such that the position of that cut determined the bolt throw (as in the clear photo he posted).  The M70 used a spring loaded lever for a bolt stop that hit either the left locking lug (for standard/H&H length cartridges) or a silver brazed on “bolt stop extension” attached to the extractor collar (for shorter cartridges requiring less bolt throw). M70 Hornet bolt stop/extractor collar (SG S/N 142692):

19.jpegImage Enlarger

Integral ramps on the M70 were replaced by silver brazed ramps beginning in 1952.  ALL M70 FWT barrels (introduced 1952) have brazed on ramps, but the conversion of Standard barrels took a long time (due to barrel inventory) and was caliber-specific in that “slow sellers” can be found with integral ramp barrels quite a long time after the change.  Your gun has the correct #2 integral ramp (given the ’49 barrel date).  Lastly, after hardening, the roll marking dies used on the barrel were very brittle and often “chipped”.  So missing parts of letters/numbers are IMHO the norm rather than the exception.  I get worried when there AREN’T defects… Wink

Best,

Lou

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Central Kansas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 203
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
September 26, 2022 - 10:36 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

All very good information guys, thank you both for your attention to the details. I did get the original trigger and 22G sight also.

Darrin

Avatar
Central Kansas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 203
Member Since:
March 21, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
November 16, 2022 - 2:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Okay gentlemen, I’m considering putting a scope on the hornet in lieu of switching out the rear sight to the 22G right away. I’d guess similar to a weaver k-4 would be suitable. Finding condition that’s similar to the gun is a bit of an issue. What mounts would I need? 

Thank you,

Darrin

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6674
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
November 16, 2022 - 3:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Darrin Smith said
Okay gentlemen, I’m considering putting a scope on the hornet in lieu of switching out the rear sight to the 22G right away. I’d guess similar to a weaver k-4 would be suitable. Finding condition that’s similar to the gun is a bit of an issue. What mounts would I need? 

Thank you,

Darrin

  

Classic mount of a ’50s gun would be a Redfield Jr., & there’s none better anyway.  For a Hornet, I think a K6 or K8 might be more useful; I love those all-steel Weaver scopes!

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1034
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
November 16, 2022 - 3:42 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi Darrin-

Assuming that you want “period” optics, I did a little “virtual shopping” in the 1952 edition of Stoeger’s “The Shooter’s Bible”, which is the closest date to 1950 I have at hand.

For SCOPES; you can choose from the Lyman Challenger (4X; 26mm tube”), Lyman All Weather Alaskan (2.5X; 7/8″ tube), Stith Bear Cub “Master” series (4X or 6X; 26mm tube; NO INTERNAL ADJUSTMENTS), Stith Bear Cub “Double” series (4X or 6X; 26mm tube; WITH INTERNAL ADJUSTMENTS), Bausch and Lomb Balvar (2.5-4X; 1″ tube), B&L Baltur (2.5X) or Balfour (4X) (none of the B&L scopes have internal adjustments); Unertl Falcon (2.5X), Hawk (4X), or Condor (6X) (all 1″ with internal adjustments), Leupold Pioneer (4X; 7/8″ tube, no internal adjustments) or Leupold 4X Riflescope (4X; 7/8″ tube, with internal adjustments), Weaver Model J 2.5 or J4 (3/4″ tube, with adjustments) or K2.5, K4, K6, K8 or K10 (1″ tube, with adjustments) or KV (2.75 or 5X, with adjustments). 

So you can go anywhere from 2.5X to 10X in a period scope depending on your shooting preference.  The internally adjustable scopes all predate “constantly centered reticles” (like the Lyman “All American” and Weaver K60 series), however.  

For MOUNTS, assuming you go with internal adjustments, the most popular were the Redfield JR (one-piece) and Weaver detachable mounts.  The Redfield and Weaver rings were available in all the relevant tube diameters (3/4″, 7/8″, 1″ and 26mm), but I’m not seeing Redfield split rings, only the “solid” rings that would require you to remove the adjustment turret and ocular bell from the scope to slide the front ring into place.  So if I went Redfield, I’d “compromise” and get the “six-screw” (four on front ring; two on rear) horizontally split rings.  Buehler mounts were also available.  A good option on a light recoiling rifle like a 22 HORNET, if you go with a period scope without a constantly centered reticle, is the Buehler Microdial base, since it’s neat and compact but adjustable for both elevation and windage in the mount.  Personally, I’d want to get the rifle sighted in as close as possible using the mount adjustments and only move the scope reticle off-center for fine tuning.  Obviously, for scopes lacking internal adjustments you’d need something like the Buehler Microdial, B&L, Stith “Master” or Leupold “Adjustomount”.

So… You have LOTS of choices!!! Laugh

Let me know your preferences, as I have a good number more scope mounts for M70s lying around here than I will ever use.  

Best,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6674
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
November 16, 2022 - 5:08 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Louis Luttrell said  
So you can go anywhere from 2.5X to 10X in a period scope depending on your shooting preference.  The internally adjustable scopes all predate “constantly centered reticles” (like the Lyman “All American” and Weaver K60 series), however.  

For MOUNTS, assuming you go with internal adjustments, the most popular were the Redfield JR (one-piece) and Weaver detachable mounts.  The Redfield and Weaver rings were available in all the relevant tube diameters (3/4″, 7/8″, 1″ and 26mm), but I’m not seeing Redfield split rings, only the “solid” rings that would require you to remove the adjustment turret and ocular bell from the scope to slide the front ring into place.  So if I went Redfield, I’d “compromise” and get the “six-screw” (four on front ring; two on rear) horizontally split rings. 

  

The K-series scopes I’ve used had centered-reticles, though they were later production than the ’50s, with detachable turret caps; it’s possible to carry “period” a bit too far.  Redfield made 2-pc rings in 26 mm, or 1.02 in; that could be made to work, but finding them is another question.  Much as I admire Weaver scopes of this period, I don’t much care for their rings & mounts. 

But why would the turret have to be removed to mount 1-pc rings?  Only the eyepiece & the bell, unless I’m missing something.  I wonder how much of a job unscrewing the bell would be, using one of those pipe-turning gadgets with the rubber strap.  I’ve bought several scopes with Redfield rings already attached, & sometimes with the mount included too.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: Chuck, antler1, tim tomlinson, Tedk, rogertherelic, Zebulon
Guest(s) 100
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6674
TXGunNut: 5287
Chuck: 4742
steve004: 4419
1873man: 4377
Big Larry: 2385
twobit: 2327
mrcvs: 1806
TR: 1745
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 13050
Posts: 114320

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1820
Members: 9016
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation